Stabilizers?

[Bud]

I had pareveins and birds on my last boat. Had it for 15 years and they are definetly a contraption with a lot of moving parts. Our system evolved over the years. It ended up using one winch per side that lifted the bird out of water until it came to the block then it would lift paravein. That way it eliminates any human handling of the birds. They would slow us down by 1 knot if adjusted for best stabalazation. The birds were also subject to getting hung up on lobster or crab pot buoy lines. We tried the tagline system to the bird but found that the line if tangled on something would bring bird uncomfotably close to boat.
Bud

 

[READY]

I had a 58 ft Hatteras MY and loved the stabilizers and used them often. Concur with others that most problems result from neglect. I were making a buying decision today I would also consider the new internal gyros. They are not inexpensive and they don't eliminate maintenance and issues but they appear to be very effective.they also will require more time on the genset.
For sure I would pay a premium (all other things being equal) for a stabilized boat. For the right boat Paravanes are effective and virtually maintenance free but not as easy as turning stabilizers on or off. For ocean crossing they would be my choice but for most typical cruisers I think they would not get frequently deployed.

So like anything else there are always options and tradeoffs. For my 32 Nordic Tugs would love to add a gyro even for SoCal nearshore/Catalina cruises but not at a $50k price!

 

[Gordon J]

Mine are gyro controlled Tracs

I wonder if some of the newer gyro stabilizers are worth comparing for efficacy, initial cost, and failure rate/maintenance costs...

-Chris

They were installed 9 years ago by previous owner. Six year service parts cost about $800 and are do it your self.

Maintenance in three years of ownership- 6 year maintenance kit upon purchase. One fitting came loose and leaked a couple of gallons of hydraulic fluid during first trip to Bahamas. Tightened fitting, problem solved. Last year we lost a bearing on a hydraulic pump. Repair was $100 and about three hours of my labor. Our boat comes with a hydraulic pump on each engine. I flicked a switch and went to the other pump.

One computer board $1200 and my labor. About an hour.

We have a 2003 OA 456. I bought this boat because of stabilizers. I would never go back. NEVER.

I truly believe that many of my friends would use their boats more if they had them.

 

[Gordon J]

I was a sailor

Not any mention of using a steadying sail, no one tried it?

Owned two sailboats prior to current trawler. Sailed from Virginia to Caribbean to Trinidad and back. A few year later throughout the Bahamas as well as extensively in the Chesapeake. No sail can compare to my Trac stabilizers. A sail helps but does not stop all roll like my stabs do.

 

[lipets]

So then you would agree $1,000 for sail if you don't want to or can't justify $20,000 is something that will help.


Or better than nothing if your boat has a lot of motion.


I'm going to try having one made with a flathead sail perhaps

 

[dhays]

Our decision satbilizers yes or no and if yes which stabilizers has fallen.

After looking at all systems, active or passive, a DMS Magnus Master Rotor System will be installed in our Selene 40 in August.
https://www.dmsholland.com/en/stabilizers/magnusmaster-2/

That is another type of system that I think is very interesting.

 

[ben2go]

Does anyone have a good primer on paravanes? I'd be interested in learning the design and forces those systems exert on a boat hull.

 

[cardude01]

http://www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm

 

[twistedtree]

Our decision satbilizers yes or no and if yes which stabilizers has fallen.

After looking at all systems, active or passive, a DMS Magnus Master Rotor System will be installed in our Selene 40 in August.
https://www.dmsholland.com/en/stabilizers/magnusmaster-2/

I'll be real interested to hear how you like them after you have some sea time on them.

 

[ben2go]

Roll Attenuation and Bilge Keels

I've read everything on that site. They don't go into the physics of it all. How leverage translates into force. There's a lot of force with those little birds pulling against those poles.

 

[caltexflanc]

They were installed 9 years ago by previous owner. Six year service parts cost about $800 and are do it your self.

Maintenance in three years of ownership- 6 year maintenance kit upon purchase. One fitting came loose and leaked a couple of gallons of hydraulic fluid during first trip to Bahamas. Tightened fitting, problem solved. Last year we lost a bearing on a hydraulic pump. Repair was $100 and about three hours of my labor. Our boat comes with a hydraulic pump on each engine. I flicked a switch and went to the other pump.

One computer board $1200 and my labor. About an hour.

We have a 2003 OA 456. I bought this boat because of stabilizers. I would never go back. NEVER.

I truly believe that many of my friends would use their boats more if they had them.

That doesn't sound like a gyro system at all. It may well use a small gyro to trigger the hydraulic solenoids, but this is what people mean these days by a gyro system:

https://seakeeper.com/

 

[Fletcher500]

We have been using a Seakeeper Gyro for the past year. Trade off’s for all mechanical systems, but for our use of coastal cruising and runs to the offshore islands a 100 miles away it has worked well. We went fishing/diving this weekend offshore so many hours at 6Knots trolling lures behind us. Swell was only 3 to 4 ft but an 8 second period so the boat was rolling a bit without it on. I often turn it off (unit is locked and doesn’t precess) for a few minutes, and then on again to experience the delta. They Gyro knocks the rolling down quite a bit and makes things more pleasant. Money well spent, but as I noted earlier it was during a new build so costs were manageable.

 

[fgarriso]

We were in the gulf 4-5 years ago just after a gale, and taking 8' seas at 4-5 seconds squarely on the port beam. With starboard roll to 45-50 degrees. Just a the boat came back upright we would get hit with another one and back we would go. After about 6 hours of that we set the port side poles and a fish down at 20'. It changed the roll to 5 degrees, but put a lot of strain on the boat. After an hour with water coming on the port companionway. We turned 90 degrees to port and bow in to ride it out. Set the parachute and rode it out for another 6-8 hours with P and S fish both down. MUCH better, was even able to hit the rack for a nap.

 

[Woodland Hills]

We have naiad 252’s and like the genset they get turned on when we leave the dock and off when we get back. They run on an engine driven pump so they shutdown when we anchor. I cannot imagine having a 60+ foot boat without them!

Seakeeper gyros would be better than fins, but since Hatteras’s use centerline tanks, I’m not sure where they would be mounted.

 

[Mako]

Does anyone know if any manufacturers sell factory-reman/refurb used stabilizer systems?

 

[twistedtree]

Does anyone know if any manufacturers sell factory-reman/refurb used stabilizer systems?

I doubt it since once they get installed, I expect they never come out again and just get replacement bearings etc.

That said, someone here was selling a set of ABT 300s that were pull outs from and upgrade to stabilization at rest. They might still be available, but are for something in the 65-75’ range boat

 

[dodo]

[FONT=&quot]

Why that brand and if you don't mind cost parts
cost install

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sorry for the late reply.
For the Magnus Master Rotor system was crucial:
We have no hydraulics, but a Victron Quattro 3000 and a generator (7 KVA), so an electrical system is an advantage.
We definitely did not find a place for a gyro system.
Unlike finn stabilizers, the rotor system can be installed at almost any position laterally in the hull. At Dodo, there is a lazarett in the stern, in which the Rotor found its place.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For Dodo (LOH 40', beam 14''-6', 20 t loaded) a single MM 14/1000 Rotor system is sufficient and thus only a single hole in the hull.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Rotor system needs a maximum of 1500 W, so no problem for our Victron Quattro and the alternator.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No further costs for maintenance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The single [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]MM 14/1000 Rotor[/FONT] for a GRP hull is about 37 k Euro without installation. [/FONT]The installation will be about 5 k Euro, whereby the battery for the stern thruster must be moved etc.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Swell was only 3 to 4 ft but an 8 second period so the boat was rolling a bit without it on. I often turn it off (unit is locked and doesn’t precess) for a few minutes, and then on again to experience the delta.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here in the Baltic Sea West we have a wave period of 4 seconds at 3-4 ft, 3 seconds at 2 ft, because of the shallow water. A wave periode of 8 seconds I would call comfortable
[/FONT]

 

[READY]

I still see stabilisers as trying to rectify a inherent design flaw on a boat.
For the amount of coin people spend on big* monos and then fit stabilizers, why not just buy a cat and be done with it?

*Boats above 60ft.

Cats are great until you need to find slips for them. If you can find one the cost usually includes a significant premium. Also the stateroom layouts are quite different between cats and mono.

 

[angus99]

I still see stabilisers as trying to rectify a inherent design flaw on a boat.
For the amount of coin people spend on big* monos and then fit stabilizers, why not just buy a cat and be done with it?

*Boats above 60ft.

I doubt many people would consider designs by Art Defever, Jim Krogen or Ed Monk inherently flawed.

 

[Wxx3]

I've read everything on that site. They don't go into the physics of it all. How leverage translates into force. There's a lot of force with those little birds pulling against those poles.

I've written extensively about this before, so I'm not going to repeat myself too much.
I'll only add this:

Without paravanes, I've been up and down the East Coast from Florida to New England and Nova Scotia, back to Florida and the Bahamas, then Florida.
I had to tack at times roo keep the seas off the beam. We stil rolled a lot, but it wasn't terrible.

Finally had the paravanes stabilizers installed in Florida. Cost about $9k.
5 years later, I'm still so happy. Could not have crossed the ocean without them.

But for coastal cruising, ...

I'm too adventurous for hydraulic fins. I need the protection from the nut behind the wheel that a full keel provides.

If you love the boat so much, the investment seems worthwhile. In any case, you can try without for a while.

 

[sailr1]

I have a 2002 Defever 44+5 . Extensively cruising it since I acquired it in 2004. Areas: up and down East Coast, New England to the keys, Bahamas, Chesapeake, Delaware Bays, etc... Will not be on this boat without stabilizers! through my 15 year of ownership, every other year bearings and seals are serviced for about $900! that is it for smooth rides and not throttling down and up constantly for fast boats passing in the ICW. Trust me, well worth the cost of this option.

 

[pavlinetz]

Love it!!

 

[Redsky49]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sorry for the late reply.
For the Magnus Master Rotor system was crucial:
We have no hydraulics, but a Victron Quattro 3000 and a generator (7 KVA), so an electrical system is an advantage.
We definitely did not find a place for a gyro system.
Unlike finn stabilizers, the rotor system can be installed at almost any position laterally in the hull. At Dodo, there is a lazarett in the stern, in which the Rotor found its place.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For Dodo (LOH 40', beam 14''-6', 20 t loaded) a single MM 14/1000 Rotor system is sufficient and thus only a single hole in the hull.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Rotor system needs a maximum of 1500 W, so no problem for our Victron Quattro and the alternator.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No further costs for maintenance.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The single [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]MM 14/1000 Rotor[/FONT] for a GRP hull is about 37 k Euro without installation. [/FONT]The installation will be about 5 k Euro, whereby the battery for the stern thruster must be moved etc."
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Please post some pics of the install.

 

[Martin J]

Had Naiads in the last 3 boats, would not be without them now. Certainly not do a ocean passage without. As to high maintenance? Not really. I am talking about the earlier models of 251 & 252's Simple wiring little electronics. I used to do 80 mile passages between the islands in the Caribbean in 20-30kts in 6-8ft seas. This would not have been possible without stabilzers.. The only modification I ever did was go from belt drive to direct drive on the front of the crankshaft. It took away the loose belt problem and reduced moving parts at the front of the engine. The best $1000 I ever spent.

 

[divert00]

Suggest spending $25 and join FeFever cruisers group. Very nice folks and an extremely active and knowledgeable forum. All knowledge regarding DeFever boats is there.

 

[Simi 60]

Cats are great until you need to find slips for them. If you can find one the cost usually includes a significant premium. .

I doubt the people who can afford 60+ ft cats are overly concerned about berth costs.
They may even be actually using their vessel for its intended purpose, cruising, so no berth required.

Also the stateroom layouts are quite different between cats and mono

Yep, on 60 ft+ cats the staterooms are usually larger and not in the hull.

 

[Simi 60]

I doubt many people would consider designs by Art Defever, Jim Krogen or Ed Monk inherently flawed.

Even if they need an aftermarket device added to make it more sea kindly and comfortably after its been designed and built ? You don't see that as a flaw?

Its like buying a new car that gets out of shape going into every corner but if you take it to the suspension shop and throw some more money at it the problem gets sorted.
It should have been done at design stage and done before it left the factory.

 

[rgano]

I think every style of roll stabilization has been mentioned but anti-roll tanks. I would strongly consider them in a new build where a naval architect is already involved. They have been fitted successfully in older boats, but again, professional services were involved in the design and construction as far as I am aware.

 

[caltexflanc]

Even if they need an aftermarket device added to make it more sea kindly and comfortably after its been designed and built ? You don't see that as a flaw?

Its like buying a new car that gets out of shape going into every corner but if you take it to the suspension shop and throw some more money at it the problem gets sorted.
It should have been done at design stage and done before it left the factory.

No it's not a design flaw at all. Different people have different tolerances for roll, and different uses on different waters. One of the benefits of full displacement boats is they have a gentler, but more pronounced and easily induced roll than planing boats, some tolerate it some don't for where and how they boat. Planing boats make the tradeoff of having a snappier motion at slower speeds, but they can go fast (and when they go fast, roll less). Both designs have their tradeoffs and there are plenty of happy boaters with stabilization, or not, on each.

Different hull forms produce different roll characteristics in various seas. I for one don't like the action of power cats in steep, choppy beam seas, and until cats get way big (I'd say personally, 75' plus) don't like the accommodations either. But would I say they are a basic design flaw? Nope. They are just basically not for us and the kind of boating we like to do.

 

[AusCan]

You're right George. There is a lot of variation in roll tolerance of boaters. There is also a lot of variance in boating waters.
Many boaters spend most of their time on protected waters and have no need for stabilizers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to protected water. I envy others who can boat and anchor in water that is calm and non threatening., but I still enjoy the challenge of dealing with a more challenging ocean. Having some type of stabilization increases the number of days each year when I can cruise in relative safety.
Have a look at the Southern Ocean on Windy.com. We get a lot of red and purple down here.