Survey finding(s) & renegotiation

[3rdOrderEffect]

Hello all,

New member; I have been dreaming of getting a trawler forever and am in the purchase process for a 2003 Camano Troll. The boat is currently in escrow, and my survey was performed yesterday. There were some findings that I expected on a boat of this age, but my chief concern among them is a leaky #6 injector on the Volvo Penta TAMD41P-A engine.
Now before you warn me off the Volvo, I already understand the volvo tax and the parts issues and that whole story (my currrent boat, altho gas and much smaller, is VP powered and I know the pain of parts costs and availability). While I'd prefer something else, its pretty much this engine or hold out to try to find one with a Yanmar, which is a tough proposition on the east coast and likely to cost more anyway since the Yanmars weren't installed until later years I believe.

Here is a pic of the injector area following sea trial. It's not a big leak but its there:

I offered about median BUC +10% on this boat as it is in above average condition otherwise and that was more or less validated by the survey, but I also offered below ask. So two questions:

1. If you're me how much does this influence you renegotiating your offer? And how much, ballpark?
2. How stressed out are you about this injector in the short term? I have always done all my own boat maintenance, but I have no diesel experience and from my brief research a fix for this requires some special tooling which means I will probably be having a VP mechanic deal with it - another tough find in southeast Florida.

 

[boatpoker]

I think you'll find that BUC pricing does not match much with reality. Here are the soldboats.com actual selling prices. Your surveyor or broker should have provided these.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

I think you'll find that BUC pricing does not match much with reality. Here are the soldboats.com actual selling prices. Your surveyor or broker should have provided these.

Not sure if those prices are in USD or CAD based on your location. In any event, the boat value listed in the survey was based on both BUC as well as comp sales and listings.

 

[Judy at JWY]

I agree that the BUC values are fairly worthless, although I think some lenders still use them. The YachtWorld sold boat prices are more realistic. Also, if your survey was just yesterday, does that mean that the surveyor expedited the oil samples and you already have the analysis report?

 

[tiltrider1]

I would find the local Volvo service center and get a quote for replacing a leaky #6 injector. I would then request a reduction in price to the quote.

The seller will probably accept as it will be the easiest fastest way to close. You will be happier controlling the repair rather than accepting a poor patch that won’t last long term. This will also give you experience with the Volvo service center before committing to the boat.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

I agree that the BUC values are fairly worthless, although I think some lenders still use them. The YachtWorld sold boat prices are more realistic. Also, if your survey was just yesterday, does that mean that the surveyor expedited the oil samples and you already have the analysis report?

I actually just received the oil analysis a few minutes ago.

According to the reports the volvo is great, the genset, not so much.

 

[Comodave]

I would find the local Volvo service center and get a quote for replacing a leaky #6 injector. I would then request a reduction in price to the quote.

The seller will probably accept as it will be the easiest fastest way to close. You will be happier controlling the repair rather than accepting a poor patch that won’t last long term. This will also give you experience with the Volvo service center before committing to the boat.

This is exactly how I would proceed.

 

[Judy at JWY]

So perhaps the genset also becomes a negotiating item.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

So perhaps the genset also becomes a negotiating item.

For sure.

Just got a call back from the closest VP marine certified shop, but they are going to have their TAMD subject matter expert call me tomorrow since he was already gone for the day. He'll give me ballpark on the injector repair plus some other things I want to get done based on the survey findings.

The genset seems in poor shape, despite the fact that it runs and makes power. Iron and Chromium PPM >100, and aluminum at 47. Its also somewhat of an obscure brand (Mastervolt, now Whisper Power) so rebuilding may not be an option. After seeing the generator oil analysis, this definitely trumps the main engine injector issue as the main negotiating item in my opinion.

 

[Greg QS]

Sure get a quote on a replacement injector. Before i do would do anything like replace. I would tighten the injector . Most likely a loose connecting. Clamp it down to stop the leak. Maybe disassemble and re install. The leak you are seeing is an install or loose injector. Not necessarily a bad injector. if the boat runs fine its is a bad seal at the injector.

 

[Mambo42]

I would worry more about the genset than about the leaking injector of the Volvo.
Is that genset easy to get out ?
What genset fits in that place ?
How much does a new genset cost and what is the cost of the installation. Think you are quickly looking at 20 K in total.
If the current owner has lots of interest he probably will not be willing to lower the price a lot, but if there is hardly any interest you may be able to strike a deal.
Good luck.

 

[Mambo42]

Is this the same boat ?

2002 Camano Troll September

2002 Camano Troll September

sites.google.com

It is also on offer in one of the topics here.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

Is this the same boat ?

2002 Camano Troll September

2002 Camano Troll September

sites.google.com

It is also on offer in one of the topics here.

Not the same boat.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

I would worry more about the genset than about the leaking injector of the Volvo.
Is that genset easy to get out ?
What genset fits in that place ?
How much does a new genset cost and what is the cost of the installation. Think you are quickly looking at 20 K in total.
If the current owner has lots of interest he probably will not be willing to lower the price a lot, but if there is hardly any interest you may be able to strike a deal.
Good luck.

The generator would not be hard to get out or replace myself. But the cost is a different matter.

Plenty of room to get it out, not sure what I could replace it with although the new version of this gen (Piccolo 4) is still in production by whisper power.

Those are the pictures of the gen in the engine bay without the sound shield on it.

 

[boatpoker]

Not sure if those prices are in USD or CAD based on your location. In any event, the boat value listed in the survey was based on both BUC as well as comp sales and listings.

Canadian $

 

[READY]

My approach on adjustments. If it is a major repair perhaps ask for 75% of cost. 100% if seller is highly motivated. If a replace with new then 50% of cost. Not 100% because I am buying a used boat so getting a brand new subsystem shouldn't be paid 100% by the seller.
I don't know that I would assume genset is trash based upon 1 oil sample. How many hours on it total, how many hours since last oil change? Without a history of oil samples hard to determine what is really going on.

Ultimately if you want the boat you have to negotiate in good faith unless seller is desperate. How willing are both sides willing to walk away. Seller knows you have invested time and money so both sides need to be realistic and get the deal done. Over the time you own it a few $k might not really matter.

Another starting point is what would seller expect to list if the problems were initially known? What would you have offered if you had known?

Just sharing some of how I approach these after 14 boats bought and sold. Just closed on one today!

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

My approach on adjustments. If it is a major repair perhaps ask for 75% of cost. 100% if seller is highly motivated. If a replace with new then 50% of cost. Not 100% because I am buying a used boat so getting a brand new subsystem shouldn't be paid 100% by the seller.
I don't know that I would assume genset is trash based upon 1 oil sample. How many hours on it total, how many hours since last oil change? Without a history of oil samples hard to determine what is really going on.

Ultimately if you want the boat you have to negotiate in good faith unless seller is desperate. How willing are both sides willing to walk away. Seller knows you have invested time and money so both sides need to be realistic and get the deal done. Over the time you own it a few $k might not really matter.

Another starting point is what would seller expect to list if the problems were initially known? What would you have offered if you had known?

Just sharing some of how I approach these after 14 boats bought and sold. Just closed on one today!

Great points all around, Ready.

I reread the survey and noticed I missed that the genset was supposedly rebuilt earlier this year. So if this was the original oil post-rebuild, I suppose the high PPM metals could be from break in. Oversight on my part. I'll get some more clarification on the gen. The hours are unknown as shown below.

 

[BruceK]

Agree your focus should be genset as well as/before the injector.
The note re the genset doesn`t make sense. The recent rebuilder should be identifiable; rebuild seems limited to the cylinder head which, not involving rings, pistons, cranks, etc, should not be producing break in metal in the oil. Maybe they did just enough to keep it running.

 

[SteveK]

@BruceK
Since you brought it up, I thought the same about a limited rebuild. Reasons for just head could be ran without water flow and overheated, warped head, that would be more like a repair.
If it runs and powers the panel, oil test acceptable, sold as is.

 

[slowgoesit]

Injector leak is probably easily fixed. Two banjo fittings to remove, replace washers. Injector bolt (1) remove, pull injector, replace seal/washer. Re-assemble, torque three fasteners. Done, but as stated, I would get estimate, and go with what the tech suggests for negotiation with seller.

Generator . . . . well, that's another animal. . . . Cylinder head does not mean rebuild. It's just a repair. Maybe they redid the head, maybe they didn't. Without documentation, it's just talk. And talk does not explain the problematic oil sample. . . . need more information

 

[SIBERNUT]

Find out what engine is REALLY in the genset. Many are powered by Kubota, etc & might make engine repair feasible

 

[Captain_Michael]

I had a 6 KW Mastervolt Genset on a Moody (British) sailboat. The engine was a Mitsubishi two cylinder diesel. Ran at 3600 rpm so it made a bit of noise. Parts were not an issue as I recall.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

Find out what engine is REALLY in the genset. Many are powered by Kubota, etc & might make engine repair feasible

From my research, the engine in the Mastervolt 3500 is a Kubota OC60

 

[Kaniksu]

I would find the local Volvo service center and get a quote for replacing a leaky #6 injector. I would then request a reduction in price to the quote.

The seller will probably accept as it will be the easiest fastest way to close. You will be happier controlling the repair rather than accepting a poor patch that won’t last long term. This will also give you experience with the Volvo service center before committing to the boat.

100%

 

[READY]

Just looked at your survey report in post 17. Had to get a chuckle...1 cylinder engine with 33KW output. Must be very high RPM and one giant piston!

 

[luna]

From the specs, I'm not a big fan of a Kubota OC60. Max rpm is 3600 and that is where a 60 Hz machine is running, so there is no headroom. With only one lung, it will be noisy.

The word from Kubota is that the engine is liquid cooled, which really means that the head itself is oil cooled but the rest of the engine including the newly heated oil from the head is air cooled. There is no raw water system on the engine, all the heat goes into the air.
Do you really want to run and air cooled engine, flat out, inside a clam shell sound shield?
It had better be a really well designed clam shell.

This could explain the replacement of the engines head. It simply overheated.
Interestingly enough Mastervolt back in 2008 pawned off their Genset line to Whisper Power. Perhaps they knew something and just gave up.
Also somewhat disturbing is the fact that the first website Google provides when looking for engine parts happens to offer a complete new head as the third item listed, for the sum of 1572 Euros. Well ahead of oil filters, fuel solenoids, and injector nozzles. One wonders if the replacement head is a best seller?

Regardless of the Genset (simply discount it to zero) the Camano of Bob Warman's design is a great boat even though he had sold the company about 4 years prior to your 2003.

If it feels right, don't look back.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

Thank you for your input everyone.

An agreement has been reached and I’ve accepted the boat. I hope to have her on my side of Florida this time next week. Look forward to hanging around on her and on this forum!

 

[Comodave]

Congrats on your new boat. Good luck!