Time for Lithium House

[Delta Riverat]

The wiring looks fine. The batts are seven years old. When mine were 7 years old they were shot.

Not like dhays, the voltage (no load) was fine but no capacity or current left.

 

[twistedtree]

Could be a dead cell in each battery, or it could just be that the batteries have not been throughly enough charged over the years. This is one reason why lead batteries need a long absorb cycle, and some more than others. Are they by chance Rolls batteries? If they are flooded, an SG reading would tell you most everything.

 

[dhays]

What you are saying is that one of the 6V in each 12V battery pair was low? The wiring is as correct as can be done. In each pair, the same current has to go through each member of the series pair. So I'd say just a classic cell imbalance issue. Were these flooded, and did you ever equalize? The ones at 6.4V are normal, the ones at 4.3V are dead.

AGM. I did equalize but likely not as often as I should have.

Anyone want a couple decent L16 AGMs?

 

[dhays]

Could be a dead cell in each battery, or it could just be that the batteries have not been throughly enough charged over the years. This is one reason why lead batteries need a long absorb cycle, and some more than others. Are they by chance Rolls batteries? If they are flooded, an SG reading would tell you most everything.

They are USBatteries AGMs. They were charged according to USBatteries charging recomendations. Other than not being equalized as often as maybe they should be, they were charged well.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I still suspect dead cells. The voltage difference is the same and just about 2/3 cells working. Tall batts make it easier to happen, more vertical plate material to slough off and pile up at the bottom.

Yup, just another reason to do the LiFePO4 - My smile is because I'll never have to do the house bank again!

Those lead-acid starters on the other hand...

 

[SteveK]

@luna are you thinking a poor ground, as in not 100% clean connection?

 

[luna]

Stevek..

Thinking with whats left between my ears is being overly optimistic.

I have seen similar failures of AGM batteries.
One of my dockmates experienced the same kind of failure (the batteries where the load was connected on their positive terminal got killed) about 18 months ago.

Just thought someone in the TF world might have better insights.

Not to worry, LiFePO4 is in the throes of fixing this now.

 

[dhays]

@luna are you thinking a poor ground, as in not 100% clean connection?

I was wondering about the connections as well. However, when I disconnected the cables, they all looked great. I had connected them with No-Ox like I do all those connections. I didn't make the cables but had them made professionally, so I assume they were done well.

But, you never know. A bad cell in two of them would be the cleanest explanation. It makes me sad to recycle two of those L16s that appear to be in great shape. Even if I had a good use for them, to be honest after having just removed all four of them, I'm not sure I'm up for picking them up again. Each of them is 121lbs and I feel every one of those pounds now.

 

[SteveK]

Dave, On my house batteries I have a shunt inline and negative grounds to engine and excetera. Multiple places away from battery on the way to bond with the alternator to complete a circuit. The positive from battery may have connection points between too, but this thought is about negative since two batts are charged.
I like a mystery, then again, it just may be a coincidence and really two dead cells.

 

[DDW]

I'm not sure what the theory would be on a bad connection. That should affect all cells. The same electrons have to go though the whole series chain. There is a one in two chance of it being that way just by chance (assuming two failed batteries).

You said you equalized them, and they were AGM. Most AGM manufacturers don't allow equalization (Lifeline is the exception, but even they have unusual requirements and say don't do it unless you really need to). I'm not familiar with USBatteries, do they recommend equalization?

I don't envy moving the L16. I have enough trouble with 6GC type, but probably have bought my last LA batteries a couple of years ago - next ones will be LiFePo4.

 

[more]

i make my lithium battery 4x 315 ah 1260 ah
battery metal box from china no name 200€ for 2x 315
EVE MB31 314Ah 16x 1299€
jkbms 200A 4x 80€
cable 300€

simarine integration 100€

nw must install
also, I think install extra 2 Poles Mccb to disconnect the battery

 

[tiltrider1]

Cells just fail. When my L-16 batteries were old I tested every cell individually. I found two bad cells. By disconnecting those batteries from the system I was able to get more usage out of the bank. This was an emergency work around as I was transiting when I discovered my bank was depleting at an unordinary rate. Once home I changed out the L-16 for LiFePo4.

 

[luna]

I'm not sure what the theory would be on a bad connection. That should affect all cells. The same electrons have to go though the whole series chain. There is a one in two chance of it being that way just by chance (assuming two failed batteries).

You said you equalized them, and they were AGM. Most AGM manufacturers don't allow equalization (Lifeline is the exception, but even they have unusual requirements and say don't do it unless you really need to). I'm not familiar with USBatteries, do they recommend equalization?

I don't envy moving the L16. I have enough trouble with 6GC type, but probably have bought my last LA batteries a couple of years ago - next ones will be LiFePo4.

Generally I agree that if there was a high resistance connection it should affect all of the cells in a common 12 V battery.
I'm not so sure that when a 12 V battery is constructed from 2, 6 V batteries that the external series connection (which happens in a 12 V battery inside the box) does not play a role in the early demise of one component used in this constructed 12 V battery.
That's why I asked if anybody knows?

I also am at odds, with your odds.
When you have 4 individual batteries and 2 fail, the possible battery combinations that failed include, Battery #1 & #2, or 1 & 3, or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3, or 2 & 4, and finally 3 & 4.
Randomly, thats 1 in 6 odds of picking any 2 particular batteries, not one in two.

My understanding is that US Battery does not make the AGM batteries that they market, label and sell as their own. Whatever equalization recommendation, if any, should ultimately come from the actual manufacturer, who may well have changed over time.

 

[dhays]

Cells just fail. When my L-16 batteries were old I tested every cell individually. I found two bad cells. By disconnecting those batteries from the system I was able to get more usage out of the bank. This was an emergency work around as I was transiting when I discovered my bank was depleting at an unordinary rate. Once home I changed out the L-16 for LiFePo4.

That sure sounds like my situation. I really hate to scrap two L16s that seem good, but I don't have a good use for them. I'll get somewhere between 12¢ and 50¢ a pound for them. I'll find out in about an hour.

 

[DDW]

Generally I agree that if there was a high resistance connection it should affect all of the cells in a common 12 V battery.
I'm not so sure that when a 12 V battery is constructed from 2, 6 V batteries that the external series connection (which happens in a 12 V battery inside the box) does not play a role in the early demise of one component used in this constructed 12 V battery.
That's why I asked if anybody knows?

Even a 6V battery is made from three 2V cells internally connected. A 12V from six cells, really doesn't matter if the cells are in the same box or not.

I also am at odds, with your odds.
When you have 4 individual batteries and 2 fail, the possible battery combinations that failed include, Battery #1 & #2, or 1 & 3, or 1 & 4, or 2 & 3, or 2 & 4, and finally 3 & 4.
Randomly, thats 1 in 6 odds of picking any 2 particular batteries, not one in two.

The odds depend on what you consider a repeat. In a 2S2P configuration, there are 4 possibilities of one in each 2S string going bad. However one high side and one low side can happen two ways and I'd consider that a repeat, so 2 in 4 or 1 in 2.

 

[Frankdog]

Personnaly I decided more batteries is better adding up to the total Ah chosen. So I have 8-100Ah each with their own BMS and all communicating with each other.
But this is about Epoch 460Ah batteries, in this case perhaps 2 batteries.
Victron is often mentioned here and I was surprised when Kevin posted an Epoch that did not need Victron communication. Then I found THIS where Panbo does an update report on the Epoch 460 after actual use since the beginning of the year.
The Panbo update applies to all types of LifePO4 as to rapid charging high current charging causing something called Lithium Dendrite

These batteries are evolving and changing before the several year ones have been put to the test to prove the original claims.
LFP is great, the recharging of them should be part of the planning process.

It cannot be stated strong enough the importance of reboust BMS, with preference for battery system being fully managed rather than self managed LFP.
Be careful with any cheaper product especially in LiPoFe4, if you are DIY without correct knowledge and tech install skills stay with lead.

 

[Brooksie]

I don't think I'd ever again get another good nights sleep if I installed lithium batteries.

​

 

[rslifkin]

I don't think I'd ever again get another good nights sleep if I installed lithium batteries.

Repeat after me. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (which are the kind used as house batteries in a boat) are not the same lithium batteries you find in a cell phone, power tools, etc. LFP doesn't have the same concerns around thermal runaway, etc.

 

[richardshulman]

My Thruster bank was able to be resurrected. My house bank OTOH, just isn't recovering from my recent power outage at the dock and the resulting deep discharge of my 4 x L16 6V house batteries. They are 7 years old. As soon as I shut off the charger today when I was down on the boat, that bank dropped to 11.9v within a few minutes without any load on the bank.

So I want to replace it with Lithium. The question come as to what battery to use.
I trust CMS's opinions and he likes Epoch. They do have a nice 460AH battery but they are relatively expensive.

For less expensive options Rod likes some of the Vatrer or LiTime batteries for a cheaper option. Both Vatrer and Litime have a 460AH battery. Neither of those has internal heating. However, while we do get cold here, normally the boat never gets below freezing and I do have some low heat in the space where the the batteries are kept to keep it above freezing. So I'm not sure if that is an issue or not. I don't want to cheap out on these batteries, partly because the technology is new to me. At the same time, the Vatrer or Litime batteries are $1200 each. The Epoch are $1800 each, half again as much! I know a number of you have already done this, any recommendations?

Do folks normally put lithium batteries in boxes? I like having my current batteries in boxes because the space they are in serves as a major storage space for all kinds of gear. It is nice having the batteries protected.

This is somewhat of a complicated subject. BUT DEFINETLY WORTH LOOKING INTO. Replace your old lead batteries with new ones. Say 210 amp 6 volt. Add a lithium battery in parallel with a Battery Bank Manager between the two different battery chemistries.
All loads will still come of your lead acid battery. Leaving the Lead acid battery in place protects your alternator. The Battery Bank Manager protects and controls the charging and discharging of the lithium battery. The end result is Your Lead acid (I would recommend AGM) supplies power to everything. The lithium battery replenishes the AGM. A 200 ah lithium battery can supply nearly all of its 200 amp and recharges 5 times faster. The AGM is never deeply discharged so its life is greatly extended.
For more insight go to emilyandclarksadventure. Many excellent videos.

 

[SteveK]

Repeat after me. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (which are the kind used as house batteries in a boat) are not the same lithium batteries you find in a cell phone, power tools, etc. LFP doesn't have the same concerns around thermal runaway, etc.

 

[SteveK]

This is somewhat of a complicated subject. BUT DEFINETLY WORTH LOOKING INTO. Replace your old lead batteries with new ones. Say 210 amp 6 volt. Add a lithium battery in parallel with a Battery Bank Manager between the two different battery chemistries.
All loads will still come of your lead acid battery. Leaving the Lead acid battery in place protects your alternator. The Battery Bank Manager protects and controls the charging and discharging of the lithium battery. The end result is Your Lead acid (I would recommend AGM) supplies power to everything. The lithium battery replenishes the AGM. A 200 ah lithium battery can supply nearly all of its 200 amp and recharges 5 times faster. The AGM is never deeply discharged so its life is greatly extended.
For more insight go to emilyandclarksadventure. Many excellent videos.

No. You want LFP to be THE house battery as it can be discharged up to100% (preferrably 80% down to 20% SOC) and lead is 50% SOC. But lead quick recharge tops up to about 80% which means you have 30% of the Ah available to use between charges.