USCG Captain's License

[Sailor of Fortune]

garbler, So many times I have been addressed as Captain. I do not have a license of any kind. I correct them, saying, 'I am not a Captain, just a boat owner.'

If your incharge and running your boat, your capt regardless..Take the good and the bad with that title

 

[23435ps]

garbler, So many times I have been addressed as Captain. I do not have a license of any kind. I correct them, saying, 'I am not a Captain, just a boat owner.'

Sure you are! Every vessel has a captain, from the smallest yacht to the largest containership! Captain, in commercial, recreational, non-military shipping, is a courtesy title employed colloquially, it is not a rank and it in reality not a license In the US atleast). CG Licensed "captains" are really: Operators (as in OUPV) or Masters (as in Master 100 ton, Master unlimited, etc).

 

[psneeld]

Why the big demand for private yacht owners to have license ? The USCG issued licenses to professional mariners to insure qualified operators and crew operating passenger vessels, tankers, pilots, etc etc. even crew members on American Flagged vessels needed a Seaman’s Document or Z-card. And today a TWIC card to even access landings and almost all commercial docks. You can’t take one of these store bought licenses to the waterfront and get a job with it cause it’s hollow and does not reflect actual experience or sea time. They are wall hangers. Of course if you’re running a six-pac fishing charter it’s different but these operators need a lot more than a license to be successful, they are professional guides. It’s getting to the point where those people working the waterfront snicker when you tell them you have a ‘ Captains License ‘ . And that’s kind of sad.

Again totally wrong.....maybe you are used to stuff over 300 ton..but a lot of professional mariners start with six packs and work up to coastal freight and tug operations as well as crew boats, lift boats etc.

Unless you dont think those operators ( which I think is way more demanding than some of the big stuff) are professionals.

You seem to be limited in either you experience (or dated) experience or your opinions.

.....if you dont know why recreational boaters want captains licenses, I have a strong suspicion you are really not familiar with the group.

 

[garbler]

garbler, So many times I have been addressed as Captain. I do not have a license of any kind. I correct them, saying, 'I am not a Captain, just a boat owner.'

I like that, it shows respect and some understanding that your average person holds some regard for mariners.

 

[psneeld]

respect for some mariners....not the ones with store bought credentials...even if they look the same.

 

[OldDan1943]

Sure you are! Every vessel has a captain, from the smallest yacht to the largest containership! Captain, in commercial, recreational, non-military shipping, is a courtesy title employed colloquially, it is not a rank and it in reality not a license In the US atleast). CG Licensed "captains" are really: Operators (as in OUPV) or Masters (as in Master 100 ton, Master unlimited, etc).

LOL Then I shall refer to myself as a boat driver.

 

[Spinner]

Why the big demand for private yacht owners to have license ? The USCG issued licenses to professional mariners to insure qualified operators and crew operating passenger vessels, tankers, pilots, etc etc. even crew members on American Flagged vessels needed a Seaman’s Document or Z-card. And today a TWIC card to even access landings and almost all commercial docks. You can’t take one of these store bought licenses to the waterfront and get a job with it cause it’s hollow and does not reflect actual experience or sea time. They are wall hangers. Of course if you’re running a six-pac fishing charter it’s different but these operators need a lot more than a license to be successful, they are professional guides. It’s getting to the point where those people working the waterfront snicker when you tell them you have a ‘ Captains License ‘ . And that’s kind of sad.

I take some exception to “Store-bought license.” While I have no immediate plans that require the license, the same can’t be said of 90% of the students in my in-person class. Nothing about the class or exams was dumbed down for “yachties!” My qualifications are now being evaluated by the Coast Guard.

Why do you describe this as store m-bought? I only lacked a few hours for the near-coastal masters, so that may be in my future....

 

[garbler]

I take some exception to “Store-bought license.” While I have no immediate plans that require the license, the same can’t be said of 90% of the students in my in-person class. Nothing about the class or exams was dumbed down for “yachties!” My qualifications are now being evaluated by the Coast Guard.

Why do you describe this as store m-bought? I only lacked a few hours for the near-coastal masters, so that may be in my future....

Go back and read the earlier post

 

[BandB]

How is the Us license not recognized outside the US? The license establishes Us tonnage and International tonnage. I Have used my license in Canada, Europe, and several Caribbean countries . My current 1600 ton license specifically says 3000 ton international. Not sure where the us license adds intl tonnage but I would think any masters license translates. Not sure about Operators license

The rest of the world requires the STCW endorsement. You may have that. If you do, then you're fine. If yours says 3000 ton international, then likely you do.

No, any Master's license does not translate. Any country's National licenses that are consistent with the STCW requirements then qualify. However, US National Licenses are not all consistent.

This was a big issue at the time of change as a lot of Captains with 200 and 500 Ton licenses suddenly found themselves needing additional courses to upgrade and get the endorsement. The licenses the OP is talking about are National licenses. This change took place about two years ago. There were a lot of scrambling captains.

I also believe 3000 International Captains were grandfathered but not sure of all the details. I know across the board for captains and engineers we spent a lot of money on upgrades.

Here's a guide that is about as clear as mud.

https://www.mptusa.com/pdf/STCW_guide_english.pdf

 

[BandB]

And today a TWIC card to even access landings and almost all commercial docks. You can’t take one of these store bought licenses to the waterfront and get a job with it cause it’s hollow and does not reflect actual experience or sea time. They are wall hangers.

And just what are you referring to as store bought?

TWIC cards aren't something difficult to acquire.

I don't think those of you in the commercial side of things have earned the right to insult those on the yachting side. Different professions but neither superior to the other.

 

[Pau Hana]

As far as I know the USCG dropped new issues of anything under the 100 ton Masters ticket. Years ago I had to document my time with ship‘s logs and a letter from the Master or company before even being able to set for the exam. However with all these outfits selling or assuring you a license for $$ I have to wonder if sea time in the right tonnage of vessel still applies.

Marine underwriters generally could care less if a private yacht owner has a license. They really don’t even care if you’ve got any real on the water experience at all. You need to show competency of some level to drive a car or commercial truck, a plane, jump out of a plane but you can buy 75 tons of yacht and take the helm without qualifications. Get the license if you’re up for it cause you’ll learn something but it won’t make any difference.

I think that is funny really that a surveyor conducting a C&V inspection told you to take a class and he knew you were teaching Captains classes. Something is adrift here but not sure what. I’m sure you weren’t too impressed with the surveyor huh ?

Curious how a store bought license is “proof of experience” unless the students are actually working as a professional mariner on a qualified tonnage vessel. Most mariners working American flagged vessels desiring to set for a license go the USCG closest Sector MSO office and get all the testing handout study literature. When ready you schedule the exam. Im not sure how it is anymore but if you weren’t already employed on a American flagged or USCG inspected vessel you would need a ‘ Letter of Intent ‘ from a company stating they would hire you if you were issued a license or Z-card. The USCG doesn’t like issuing Masters licenses if you don’t have a job.

The only underwriters I’ve ever worked with that cared about licensing were those writing Sub Chap T & H vessels, towing and some other operations. There was nothing in reporting about yacht owners and licensing. But I’ve been outfit that business for about five years now.

Brother, I don't know where you got your information (or if you slept at a Holiday Inn Express ) - you are dead wrong with regards to how marine underwriters view a USCG ticket holder. I've been on both sides of the marine insurance game (agent/broker and underwriter), and I'll tell you the rec boater with a USCG ticket does get additional discounts and consideration.

Underwriters do care about experience on the water. I challenge you to find any marine insurance company that will insure a vessel of size greater than 40'/10-15 GRT without experience. Ain't gonna happen with a reputable insurer.

Most folks with a ticket will not deal with Subchapter T requirements for SPV, and none will deal with subchapter K or H vessels- so those arguments are moot. ANY underwriter offering coverage on vessels taking passengers for hire will require the current COI for the vessel (all pages), as well as the credentials and resume for the potential vessel master.

 

[mvweebles]

I like that, it shows respect and some understanding that your average person holds some regard for mariners.

When on someone else's boat, I frequently refer to them as "captain." For me, it makes it clear I expect a decision and direction. A common example is when docking - what order of lines, etc. "What's the plan here captain?"
.

 

[Benthic2]

So lets say Abel and Cain each get 6 pack licenses and buy a KK 42. Abel goes from Boston to Miami every year....and Cain goes from Boston to London every year.....after 5 years do they have different licenses ???

 

[psneeld]

They might.....I dont recall exactly because it didn't affect me....but the USCG used to put different location restrictions on lower licenses.

Plus if either upgraded to master...one might only qualify for inland.

I get what garbler is saying ....but unfortunately its intertwined with so many errors.

If he just stuck to the opinions of lifelong mariners or limited the scope...as in just because you have a license you can get a job....but thats also true in the lower license world. Some of the first guys my old boss fired were the old timers with lots of sea time.

No one has ever asked me where I got my license, just what I had. Of course, true old salts know in a few what your real experience is....but experience doesn't always equal performance.

One guy was the worst...A retired Navy Commander with years and years on a transatlantic car carrier.....nice guy but didn't know crap about small boat/towing or maintenance.

The only reason I have kept posting is I don't want other boaters to get totally false impressions of heading for a USCG license.

 

[psneeld]

Found this....

Captains' License Information

This license is properly termed “Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels” (OUPV) and is commonly referred to as the “6-pack” or “Charterboat Captain’s License”. The word “uninspected” means that the equipment required and the design of the boat are less regulated. “6-pack” refers to the 6 passenger limitation placed on the license. OUPV licenses are issued with a particular route. Your license can be for the Great Lakes, Inland routes meaning bays, sounds, rivers, lakes, etc. of the US or Near Coastal routes out to 100 miles offshore. All OUPV licenses are for 100 Gross Tons vessels (about 100 feet, more or less). The OUPV license may be upgraded to a Master license.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

The rest of the world requires the STCW endorsement. You may have that. If you do, then you're fine. If yours says 3000 ton international, then likely you do.

No, any Master's license does not translate. Any country's National licenses that are consistent with the STCW requirements then qualify. However, US National Licenses are not all consistent.

This was a big issue at the time of change as a lot of Captains with 200 and 500 Ton licenses suddenly found themselves needing additional courses to upgrade and get the endorsement. The licenses the OP is talking about are National licenses. This change took place about two years ago. There were a lot of scrambling captains.

I also believe 3000 International Captains were grandfathered but not sure of all the details. I know across the board for captains and engineers we spent a lot of money on upgrades.

Here's a guide that is about as clear as mud.

https://www.mptusa.com/pdf/STCW_guide_english.pdf

I had my original STCW endorsement and classes in 2000 and they were good for life,until they were not. Now they require 5 year renewal classes,

 

[twistedtree]

‘Store Bought’ is an expression that the working or commercial mariners call a ticket or license resulting from taking ‘ courses on the beach ‘ instead of making a living on the water. It has nothing to do with knowing or having the answers for the exam it’s just sort of a almost cultural divide in some respects and a snide way of saying ‘ I have real sea time ‘ and you’re a yachtsman or ‘ Blazer ‘ .

OK, thanks for clarifying the insult.

 

[twistedtree]

I like that, it shows respect and some understanding that your average person holds some regard for mariners.

Well, perhaps you should show that same respect?

 

[twistedtree]

So lets say Abel and Cain each get 6 pack licenses and buy a KK 42. Abel goes from Boston to Miami every year....and Cain goes from Boston to London every year.....after 5 years do they have different licenses ???

Yes, at least I believe they would be eligible for different licenses. Or more specifically, they would be eligible for different operating ranges.


The guy running Boston to Miami will seldom be outside the "Boundary Line", and as such may never qualify for anything beyond Inland operation.


The guy who runs from Boston to London will spend a lot of time outside the Boundary line, and in time will qualify for Near Coastal, and ultimately for Oceans operation.

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm considering getting my captain's license for several reasons - to satisfy my interest in boating, to help with getting my next boat insured, to learn new things and keep my mind active, but most of all to be a safer boater.

Hmmm, it doesn't look like I'm going to meet the boating experience requirement. I would need 360 days of boating experience (I have), but 90 must be in the past 3 years (don't have).

How is the quality of on line training? I like the convenience, but I also like the real world stories you hear from a flesh and blood instructor.

Can't speak to online training, but I did find classroom training to be very helpful. Partly to keep my nose to the grindstone, party to help me focus... 'cause on my own, I tend to usually be thinking about 300 different subjects at the same time.

And the classroom setting also helped because it wasn't just about listening to an instructor, but also to the other attendees too. Sometimes the questions were illuminating, since those often led to more in-depth focus on various topics...

I did very much appreciate the "keeping my mind active" part, too. Becoming a locally licensed "fishing guide" helped that too, even though we (on-purpose) never chartered for fishing.

The license training does not teach boat handling, though... so I'd say it's only half (or less?) of what's required to be a safer boater. Very useful, but not the whole magilla.

FWIW, my insurance was already discounted as deeply as it could be when I got around to getting the master's credential... but the broker told me it could have made a difference, earlier in my boating life.

And finally, even if you don't have sea time just yet... taking the captain's training now is still a pretty good step forward... so you can more easily qualify once you can meet the underway criteria.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Can't speak to online training, but I did find classroom training to be very helpful. Partly to keep my nose to the grindstone, party to help me focus..

This was my experience too. At the time, USCG required 80-hours of teaching time with a proctored exam on the final day. It's all I did for 2-weeks and I learned a lot. But as is always noted, there is no testing of hands-on experience (same as getting a college degree I suppose). Your practical experience comes afterward. The ticket allowed me to work as captain on a Hornblower-type 3-hour dinner cruise boat, then into deliveries and training. It was a good run - class was one of the many high points.

Peter

 

[BandB]

This was my experience too. At the time, USCG required 80-hours of teaching time with a proctored exam on the final day. It's all I did for 2-weeks and I learned a lot. But as is always noted, there is no testing of hands-on experience (same as getting a college degree I suppose). Your practical experience comes afterward. The ticket allowed me to work as captain on a Hornblower-type 3-hour dinner cruise boat, then into deliveries and training. It was a good run - class was one of the many high points.

Peter

Like any education, what you learn is based partly on what you put into it. The current course here locally is 11 days, exam on day 11.

 

[stow it]

Hmmm, it doesn't look like I'm going to meet the boating experience requirement. I would need 360 days of boating experience (I have), but 90 must be in the past 3 years (don't have). Also, I'm not sure how you would show documentation of that time. I didn't always enter my boating time in the ship's log.

How is the quality of on line training? I like the convenience, but I also like the real world stories you hear from a flesh and blood instructor.

I used to renew my professional licenses, after I had stopped going to sea, using my own boat, which was a 24' sailboat with an outboard. USCG didn't seem to mind my renewing an unlimited, ocean going license as long as I provided a copy of my registration and a sea log (using their form) on my own boat.
don't know if that's still the case

 

[courage121]

Based on advice from many friends with USCG licenses, since I have no intention to every use it to earn money etc, I decided not to get one because of the initial cost, renewal cost, and additional liability in the event of an accident. I did want to be sure that I had the knowledge to pass the test so I bought Charlie Wings book on how to pass the test and studied every chapter so that I could get a passing grade on the sample tests at the end of the chapter. I learned a lot by doing this and it was fun. I am satisfied knowing that my knowledge was sufficient to pass without incurring the cost or additional liability. I think most recreational boaters fit into the same category and could do what I did.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure who your friends are...but sure would like to know where they found out there is added liability for having a license.

I might argue the opposite. If you are conscientious, you may do more to avoid problems and be able to articulate better why you did or did not do something if involved in an incident..

Not being licensed does not alleviate any boater from not knowing or following the rules/ laws.

 

[Pirate]

Reading your initial post, most of your reasoning is sound. Anything that you can do to increase your knowledge will make you a better, safer boater. As far as the insurance is concerned, I think that they have figured out that a piece of paper does not make you a capable seaman. That only comes from miles under your keel. I have been on the water long enough to say that I got my first license well before the Colregs went into effect. In that time I have seen many "licensed captains" that were pretty much novices. Being safe takes both knowledge and experience. I would encourage you to learn, but do it through a school that actually teaches you something. Many of them are merely license mills that teach you to take a test. If your plans are to go cruising, the most useful thing that you might get out of a license course is a thorough review of the rules of the road. You might be better served to look into what the Power Squadron has to offer. They have courses that address things like the principles of seamanship & boat handling geared towards yachts. Also, anything above a 6-pack and you will learning about rules and regulation pertaining to inspected vessels which will not be of much benefit on a private yacht. You also might want to find a course on diesel maintenance. That might be time better spent. Enjoy living aboard. It's a great lifestyle.

 

[twistedtree]

I decided not to get one because of the initial cost, renewal cost, and additional liability in the event of an accident.

Amazing that we live in a culture where knowledge and skill is viewed as a liability. But it pretty well sums up a lot of thinking these days.

 

[denverd0n]

...additional liability in the event of an accident.

I hear this all the time. I don't believe it. I have, in the past, asked for anyone to provide a verifiable source that shows just one incident where someone who was engaged in recreational boating -- not under the auspices of their license -- was held to greater liability simply because they had a license.

Nothing. No one has ever been able to provide such evidence. It is always a case of "my cousin's brother-in-law heard of a guy..." or "well, it just makes sense" (no, it doesn't), or a case where the captain in question had paying passengers, so he was NOT operating recreationally.

I will repeat the request. If anyone can point me to a source that shows an actual case of a captain operating his own boat in an entirely recreational capacity, being held to greater liability just because he had a USCG license, I would be extremely interested in seeing it.

 

[courage121]

Re: Additional liability for Captains license: The way it was explained to me my several people whose knowledge I trust, is that like over the road truck drivers with a CDL license, boaters with a USCG license are held to a "higher standard" than those without the license when involved in an accident since they are presumed to be more knowledgeable, better trained, have more experiences, and therefore should be better able to avoid an accident. Perhaps others reading this post can comment.

 

[psneeld]

It is a little complicated but this is what I have understood in the many years associated with the topic...

"So, assuming that our reader’s hypothetical incident is a recreational boating accident that just happened to involve a licensed captain, the fact of the license would not, by itself, cause the person to be held to a different standard."

https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-atto...licenses-held-to-a-higher-liability-standard/