Wagner 700 helm pump, HELP

[Gone Roaming]

Both my helm pumps are leeking from the shaft seal, i have got new seals but they look to big to knock in. the old seals were "O" rings but the new ones are "U" shaped with an iner spring on the seal. can anyone advise please if i have the right seals, part No: 500013 from Wagner.

 

[Lepke]

Parts for 700 pump attached. Part number agrees and picture looks like cup seals. Maybe a later upgrade. Cup seals work better than orings.

 

[STB]

Any chance you can post pictures of the pump overall, the seal in the pump, and the new seal? Something seems off. Thanks!

 

[fractalphreak]

Both my helm pumps are leeking from the shaft seal, i have got new seals but they look to big to knock in. the old seals were "O" rings but the new ones are "U" shaped with an iner spring on the seal. can anyone advise please if i have the right seals, part No: 500013 from Wagner.

I feel your pain as I went through this exact scenario last year. In short, you have the wrong part for your pump. I don't actually have the Wagner part number for you, read on for my details...

There are three different 700 series helm pumps that Wagner produced. The first (which you have) is the 700 helm pump. It is substantially different from the 701 and 702 pumps.

The 700 pump uses an oring to seal the shaft at the front of the pump.

The 701 and 702 pumps use the actual seals that you've obtained. Purchasing the right parts can be problematic, because most suppliers for Wagner immediately go to "700 series pumps" as the 701 and 702. It took me a long time to find the correct part number of the kit needed for the 700 pump.

I have found an actual 700 kit for sale online, but I'm sure they are actually for sale from Wagner/suppliers. When I rebuilt my first pump I had purchased the 701/702 kit, and simply found the correct sized nitrile o-rings (there are 4 total needed, plus 4 that the 701/702 kit had) to put it back together.

The proper parts kit you need for your 700 pump is Wagner 119-0001 (this is an original number from an old PDF catalog of theirs.) Unless you bought that seal separate, I'm guessing the kit you have is the equivalent of the original 119-0002, for the 701 and 702 pumps. If you haven't bought a full kit, disregard the issues I dealt with below.

The drawing Lepke posted above is of the 701 and 702 pump. I've never found a similar drawing of the exact 700 original pump. Your 700 pump comes apart via 4 Allen screws on the back cover. The 701 and 702 pumps actually have a large clamp ring that holds the back over onto the case. It also has bronze bushings for the front and back of the shaft along with that proper oil seal, an improvement over the 700 pump.

Photos below...

This first one shows the new seal you have, for the newer pumps, along with the o-ring I took out of mine. The housing is machined only for the o-ring. The seal is from the 119-002 kit I bought. Instead of returning the kit and getting the right one, I simply sourced some o-rings locally.




Here are 4 o-rings that came out of my 700 pump that were not in the kit.



The kit and its contents. Several o-rings I didn't need, and the gasket, while perfect, does not have the 4 Allen bolt holes punched out, as the 701 pumps are held together with a large locking ring instead of the Allen bolts (more on that below.)



4 o-rings in the kit I DID need, the old ones on the left...



The o-rings I bought. (I found them at Piston Service in Anacortes, WA.) I can't remember the sizes, I matched them up according to their assumed non-squished dimensions. I believe the two part numbers of the two bags are the two larger ones I needed, the smaller one is added in. I bought double of everything, so it looks like a lot. One of them (National 210PKG) is for the front seal (for the shaft.) I should have all the exact sizes written down in some notes someplace if you want them, I don't have them handy by the computer tonight. IIRC the two bags have the correct part numbers of the two larger sized National o-rings I bought, unfortunately I photoed them upside down.



These next 3 are photos of marking and punching the holes in the gasket to fit.









While I didn't go back and order up the different kit (mainly because of time), the few o-rings I needed were readily available nearby. It went together fine with no leaks. Full disclosure; after finding out all about how much better designed the 701 pumps are, I kept searching and finally found 2 used ones for sale on ebay. I rebuilt one and have it on my flybridge station. I have the other waiting to go at the lower helm when it needs a rebuild.

The 700 and 701 pumps are both designed to be flush mounted with a flush mount ring that goes on the front of a bulkhead. The 702 pump is the same design as the 701, but is made with a flange on the front of the case for bolting directly to a bulkhead.

Good luck!

 

[grahamdouglass]

This might help

I had my wagner helm pump rebuilt by Olympic Drives in Richmond, B.C., Canada.( Olympic Drives Home Page). Wagner is a Canadian firm that was based in North Vancouver,B.C., Canada.

Go to the web site and you will find contact info. You might, if all else fails, shoot them an email and see if they can't ship you the required seals.

Or, you could do what I did years ago when I had a marine engine on a sailboat they no longer made, and the seals were leaking. You go to a industrial firm dealing with pumps, with the pump, and see if they can match the seal.

 

[Gone Roaming]

WOW Guys.....

so much help thank you so much. this all makes things alot clearer. i think half the problem that i have is that the casing is so worn that the seals no longer make a seal. late yesterday i found a contact that had a number of "new old stock" pumps in the uk called Helmsman on the south coast. i have biyyen the bullet as it were and have ordered one for now and see what there like. if its any help for you guys his number is 07860889203 uk Pete Morgan.

Thank you very much for all your help its so good to know there are people like you about that can help. i will happly return the favour if i can.

Thank you.

Tony

 

[PennBruce]

Resurrecting an old thread.

I just ordered two seal kits for my 701 helm pumps from Olympic Drives & Equipment Ltd located in Richmond, BC.







They use a shipper that takes the item to the US and ships via USPS. I received the kits in four days. Cost including shipping was $62 CND. With transaction fees it cost me $45.34 USD. The kits they sell include the cork gasket.

The stock number is 119-0002.

I am very pleased with the price and their service.

Bruce

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I should have searched TF before starting my rebuild. I bought a spare off of Ebay and rebuilt it. It was the newer back-plate style, held on by sort of a canning jar ring. I then used it to replace my upper helm pump and rebuilt that one. So I have a spare and I'm holding off on rebuilding the lower helm because we are going to be starting our summer cruise north. But here is what I have learned so far.

The part numbers shown on the Wagner Seal Kit give you most of the information you need to buy everything at a local parts store. For instance, Wagner O-ring part number 11-106018 is a 018 O-ring, which is really neither British Imperial or metric, just a standard sizing system. The last three numbers of the Wagner part number gives you the size you need. These O-rings are 50 cent (or less) items. The big gasket is 1/16 rubber-cork like in this $5 kit. You will need 5" by 5" and a razor knife. The Wagner instructions say to use a sealant with the gasket, which I didn't do on two of mine. I guess I'll find out if it is really necessary. There was none on either that I rebuilt, and the leaking didn't seem to come from the gasket.

I went with 70A duro O-rings instead of a 90A. That means that the O-rings are squishier. All of the ones I removed were stiff and flat, so I'm hoping 70 might be better. Or maybe the removed ones were not 90A, but started out as 70A and hardened over the years. Make sure to buy the different sized O-rings for the distribution block from the same source. There are three O-rings on the block that all have to squish equally. I found that one vender's 1.78mm is not the same as another (or else one venders 70A duro isn't the same). Whatever, they need to squish the same, i.e., be the same thickness and softness.

Also, beware of damage to the dogs that hold down the distribution block. They are cast aluminum with a little "leg" that balances them out when tightened down. One of my pumps really leaked, and for a good reason. My PO had tightened the screw so that it fractured the dog and was actually two pieces. The distribution block is a big machined facing against another facing. Once the O-ring is squished, further tightening only shatters the dog (picture below). I found some used dogs, but I'm guessing those parts will be the hard to find Wagner items in the future. Otherwise, it seems the Wagner 701 can outlast the boat.

I used light air pressure to test the seals of the O-rings that are inside on the distribution block and only replaced one, using the theory "don't fix it if it ain't broken." Those O-rings can be replaced in the future without removing the pump. Actually, all of the O-rings can be replaced without removing the pump. The problem with that is you won't get to see inside. The insides of my 1981 vintage pump looked like hell. Bad as it looked, it cleaned up. What appeared to be rust was more a stain. Once removed with bronze wool, the original milling marks showed with no pitting. I'm not sure where all the gray pasty goop came from, but it was packed in the corners. Brake cleaner to the rescue.

The front shaft oil retention ring varies based on the pump's vintage. One of mine had a simple NBR O-ring 3/4" I.D. 1" O.D. (actually, the shaft is probably 19mm). I replaced it with a Viton O-ring, hoping that the silicon content of the ring might make it last longer (than 42 years?) Actually, the ring is a size 018 and isn't exactly 3/4" or 19mm, but it is the right one.

The later models used a spring-skirt gasket for the front of the helm shaft and the parts kit only shows a Wagner part number instead of a size (the kit contains both the skirt gasket and the older O-ring part). For mine, the spring-skirt gasket was a 19mm I.D. x 30mm O.D. x 7mm. Those are about $6 each. I may try to replace the gasket on my existing 701 which leaks out the front. According to the Wagner instructions, this is possible. I would think that it might be messy (as any removal or O-ring replacement would be). And after seeing what was inside my upper helm pump, it probably needs to be removed and cleaned out even if the shaft seal can be replace in situ.

Now that I'm looking at my third rebuild and have all the parts on hand (or overnight from Amazon), I would say that the R/R takes longer and is messier than the rebuild (assuming you don't need any machining). Mailing or driving the pump off to a repair shop probably takes longer than rebuilding. Were I a rebuilding business, I would love to see these come through the door if I could charge >$200 for forty minutes and $12 in parts. It's not rocket science, although you will want your video rolling when you open up the first one.

 

[grahamdouglass]

Hi, do you live on the west coast ? In Richmond BC, Canada, there is a business called ‘Olympic Drive’ they are the successor business to the business that supplied Wagner pumps back in the day. Google up ‘Olympic Drive’ on Graybar Road in Richmond BC. They rebuild drives. They rebuilt mine.
If you troll my posts you will come across a post I did in 2016 on Wagner. Good luck.