Weather "Window" Advice Needed/Wanted

[stroutmail]

Coming into Elizabeth city shortly after a fun crossing of the Albemarle sound. Will probably fuel at Top Rack on Friday and then move to the Point Comfort anchorage for the evening. Do you have AIS?

Ted

No AIS yet. Until I get time to test the anchor, chain, line and windlass at my home port, I will be using marinas on this trip. If we have to layover Friday evening, will possibly check out the Old Point Comfort Marina, if they have room.

(Very different forecast data for Friday from GFS and NAM vs ECMWF models BTW.)

Might see you when we go by Top Rack Friday morning.

Sent my cell # via PM to you.

Donald

 

[stroutmail]

Don't see a need for a professional captain unless one wasn't confident with his navigational skills, not confident in docking their boat, or just need additional crew.

Pretty confident about location/direction skills--have not gotten lost flying or boating yet. (Only gone aground once.) But would like someone aboard with more experience and local knowledge in the Norfolk and lower Bay areas.

This is a new boat to me. Docked single engine sailboats and twin engine yachts--never a single with a bow thruster. And, it has been a few years since I have docked a heavy boat in high wind. So, not yet ready to single hand and not sure I can count on someone catching my line.

No crew. Just me. Not yet ready to single hand the boat for 8-10 hour days. All my potential "crew" have jobs. Wife is a somewhat willing passenger in smooth/sunny weather, but not interested in piloting, line handling or other dock gymnastics. So I figured I needed at least one competent crew member.

I am a pretty careful guy, so hiring a delivery captain, familiar with the boat and the trip seemed prudent. Perhaps not needed, but a good idea (insurance) to have. (Not a lot different from hiring a Certified Flight Instructor to accompany you as a safety co-pilot on a long cross country trip--which I have done. I am no Charles Lindbergh. lol) I guess I am just a believer in seeking assistance from people who know more than I. Many years ago, I was a professional race car driver--to improve my skills, I hired several professional championship level coaches. (Bob Bondurant, Bob Earl, Elliot Forbes-Robinson, Buck Baker, Benny Parsons.) I never became a top driver, but the coaching did help a lot.

Is there a bias against using professional captains from time to time? Do other captains look down on captains/boat owners that use professional captains when sailing unfamiliar waters?

 

[Porgy]

I might have heard somewhere, I can’t place it now but maybe a thousand times, that you are a pilot. If so, you might be interested in a stop at Old Point Comfort Marina. The present owners of Strumpet keep her there. It is a 35’ Benford designed wood trawler that Ernest Gann had built and it still looks in great condition. I think it is on I Dock.

The Dead Rise restaurant is open for take out and outdoor with spread out tables. If you have time, a walk around the fort is amazing, the last star redoubt in use in the US.

The marina has been on limited hours during reopening so you may have to try calling more than once. They have been very responsive though.

It’s probably not a bad idea to have someone competent along going through Hampton Roads if you haven’t done it before. Some days it’s a tourist ride and others, every tug, ship and warship is out and it helps to have multiple sets of eyes and ears. It can appear to be bedlam to the unwary. You’ll want two radios on 13 and 16.

 

[PMF1984]

I agree that a second hand aboard is nice to have. It’s most useful in cases like this trying to make a 10 hour cruise. I like to take a little break (some would call it a nap) for a couple hours when doing these long hauls.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. s. "Is there a bias against using professional captains from time to time?" Who the h*ll cares? It's YOUR vessel, YOUR cruise and YOUR feeling of comfort and well being. IMO, anyone who looks down on or criticizes you for your actions to ease things along isn't worth considering for a second. The ONLY thing you should be thinking about is the safety of you and your boat.

 

[rslifkin]

For the professional captain question, I'd much rather see someone hire a captain or crew than get themselves in over their head and either damage a boat or get someone hurt.

 

[Codger2]

For the professional captain question, I'd much rather see someone hire a captain or crew than get themselves in over their head and either damage a boat or get someone hurt.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[SoWhat]

Don't see a need for a professional captain unless one wasn't confident with his navigational skills, not confident in docking their boat, or just need additional crew.

No need but anyone connected with aviation is trained in safety safety safety until it becomes muscle memory. It's called a prudent approach.

I don't agree with advocating for a three day weather window. If I waited for 2' seas I would never leave the slip. What better time to find out what the boat will do when you have a captain on board. The only way you recognize your own limits is to be out there getting your teeth pounded out. 25MPH winds, 50% whitecaps, water over the bow, time to head in.

VFR pilots learn the same way. Clouds get lower, forward visibility disappears, time to do a 180. If you waited for solid blue skies you wouldn't fly much.

 

[mvweebles]

For the professional captain question, I'd much rather see someone hire a captain or crew than get themselves in over their head and either damage a boat or get someone hurt.

....... or hire an unprofessional captain.

I have a good friend who has been a lifelong sailor of largish boats (last one was 46-foot PH sailboat) and is an excellent helmsman. He has several trips up/down the California coast. He move to Florida a couple years ago and bought a 52 foot yacht. Despite his experience, he spent quite a bit of time with a captain to get used to the boat and get used to skinny water. And he also needed crew a couple times to move the boat.

 

[Bryant]

Time frame

Getting ready to move my 1984 Grand Banks 36 Classic that I just acquired all the way from one end of the Chesapeake to the other (200 miles from Chesapeake (Norfolk) to Havre de Grace.)

Fairly confident of my seamanship and the boat, however I decided that it would be very prudent to hire a professional Captain who delivers yachts for a living to accompany me. (I am sure I will learn a lot and I am not familiar with Norfolk, Hampton Roads and York Spit waters.)

Most likely, what the boat and the young professional Captain can take is much different from what my 70 year old body will take. I have sailed for 12 hours in a 30 footer, but the bay was pretty calm. I have sailed in the Gulf out of Fort Myers in rough 4 foot waves and did not like it at all--but that was in a sail boat heeled over.

I am looking at one possible time frame where winds are 25-35 mph, from the north, and with full bay to build fetch, will build 4 foot waves. I am not sure that I want to deal with 12 hours of sailing directly into the wind with 4 foot seas. And I figure that much wind would cut about 1-2 mph off the boat speed--making a long trip even longer.

My ideal would be typical 5-15 mph winds, and 1-2 foot waves. So wondering if that is too conservative for this boat.

I am in no particular hurry, other than I am paying for two slips and would like to get the boat to "home" port so I can start doing some maintenance "tinkering".

Looking for advice from more experienced Captains.

From one 84 GB 36 Classic Owner to another, if you fight 30 kt winds through 4 ft seas for 200 miles, you will probably put the boat up for sale when you get there. Same thing with beam seas of any size for 200 miles. One other thing to consider, on a trip of that length in those conditions with a brand new boat (to you) anything that is wrong with the boat, mechanically, will manifest itself, probably at the worst time. Good idea on hiring a professional Captain. Make sure either he or you are covered by one of the towing insurance providers. Forgive me if I’m telling you things you already know. Honestly, you might consider letting the Captain hire a mate and you meeting them for the last leg of the trip. This is exactly what I did.
I don’t know enough about weather patterns in your area to advise on that but I do advise you in the strongest of terms, wait for the calmest conditions possible and give yourself plenty of time to wait out strong winds and heavy seas.
Congratulations on your boat and good luck.

 

[Nightflyer]

Maybe you already have these links

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZUS51.KLWX.html

http://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/data/raw/fz/fzus51.kakq.cwf.akq.txt

PredictWind app.

You mentioned 4’ rollers, with the Chesapeake very shallow think you find mire chop than ocean rollers.

 

[Photoman41]

You definitely don’t want to travel in the conditions you described. It would be brutal. I know because I have experienced that a couple of times on the Chesapeake Bay. If at all possible avoid winds coming from a northerly direction. Winds out of a southerly direction are much better.

There are plenty of weather apps which can help you find a food travel window. I am not sure what you’re cruising speed is but you’re looking at a multi/day trip. Make it enjoyable.

 

[Bryant]

Weather window

If I was traveling by myself, I would simply go when comfortable...pull into a safe harbor if too rough and wait. "Enjoy the stops as mentioned". Then leave and continue when weather is good again.

But, my delivery captain wanted to make the trip in two long days...I insisted we take three to avoid risk of docking after dark. So I pretty much need to make the trip in a three day "window" or I guess I could just bite the bullet and pay for his fee for 4 or 5 days.

Just read this. Fire this delivery captain. He will get you into trouble. Hire one that works for you and not the other way around. Don’t be on a schedule. Of course you will have to pay for delays caused by weather or whatever, but you and your boat will also get there in one piece. If you have to keep the boat where it is until favorable weather conditions present themselves then do so. Forcing a passage on a strict timeframe is a recipie for a very uncomfortable crossing at best and disaster at worst.

 

[O C Diver]

No AIS yet. Until I get time to test the anchor, chain, line and windlass at my home port, I will be using marinas on this trip. If we have to layover Friday evening, will possibly check out the Old Point Comfort Marina, if they have room.

(Very different forecast data for Friday from GFS and NAM vs ECMWF models BTW.)

Might see you when we go by Top Rack Friday morning.

Sent my cell # via PM to you.

Donald

Donald,
Hope you were able to get to Deltaville today. Pulled in to Crisfield around 4 PM. Weather steadily improved North of Wolfe Trap light. Saturday's weather looks to be nicer than today's.

Best of luck.

Ted

 

[Bryant]

Weather window

No need but anyone connected with aviation is trained in safety safety safety until it becomes muscle memory. It's called a prudent approach.

I don't agree with advocating for a three day weather window. If I waited for 2' seas I would never leave the slip. What better time to find out what the boat will do when you have a captain on board. The only way you recognize your own limits is to be out there getting your teeth pounded out. 25MPH winds, 50% whitecaps, water over the bow, time to head in.

VFR pilots learn the same way. Clouds get lower, forward visibility disappears, time to do a 180. If you waited for solid blue skies you wouldn't fly much.

Very, very, very bad advice. Listening to this guy will get you hurt. Btw, 55 years boating experience, motor and sail and retired Naval Flight Officer and Squadron Commander. You don’t wait for totally Blue Skies, you wait for decent weather. “Get home itis” has killed a lot of VFR aviators. “Kick the tires, light the Fires, make a good looking corpse” isn’t good advice for the new owner of a trawler needing to move it. Being on a tight schedule when moving a boat, or aircraft for that matter ,regardless of conditions, will put you in extremis. There were many instances when I waited for a window to fly from Okinawa to the PI or back, rather than “seeing what she would do”. Same thing with moving boats. If you’re in a hurry and are moving on a schedule rather than existing conditions, you are likely to suffer damage, get hurt or worse. The loss of the Bounty replica is a prime example of that.

 

[AUXOPdwp]

Norfolk to Hampton Rhodes advice

My wife and I are quite familiar with your need. We operate a twin screw 34' Sabreline, which is very similar in terms of displacement, etc., but we've also operated a 42' sloop for many years. The Southern Chesapeake is more challenging than everything north of the Potomac due to commercial traffic, and the fact that 'quick refuge' anchorages (or marinas) are not nearly as plentiful. Additionally, the mouth of the Potomac can be very rough, even for sailboats. Hence, planning the leg(s) up to Solomons Island should be done carefully. We choose which side of the Bay to travel depending on anticipated fetch, winds, etc.



We will sometimes use Tangier Sound to bypass the effects of the Potomac, and re-enter the Bay north of Bloodsworth Island. At this point you must be vigilant for US Naval range activity from Patuxent Naval Air Station. Helicopters will harass you if you don't stay out of the well marked zone. Normally, we try to hug the western shore as we make for the Patuxent River and an overnight at Solomons Island harbor - excellent anchorage and/or marinas plus competent repair services. From Solomons, we head to either West River or Knapps Narrows.



By this time you should have a good sense for how the boat is performing, as well as how comfortable, or uncomfortable, you are living aboard (cooking, bathing, co-habitating, etc.). It's a very easy run to Annapolis, or you can log a few extra miles by spending a night in the Magothy River. Then decide whether you want an intermediate stop in Bodkin Creek or Middle River, before steaming for Havre de Grace.


My wife and I maintain Coxswain certifications with CG Auxiliary and we try to apply the same Risk Assessment & fatigue limits to personal cruising as we're obliged to do when operating our Sedan Bridge under USCG orders. This means not exceeding 8 hour work shifts unless there is a very good reason and also being gentle with crew and vessel. In years past we've done 36 consecutive hours from West End to Port Canaveral; had the Olive oil freeze when we didn't get far enough south early enough; and broken things because we pushed a subsystem too hard for too long. We're now older and wiser. Making 100 miles/day when conditions are perfect is heaven. Settling for 35 to 60 miles/day when it's prudent to do so is gratifying as you appreciate your progress without injury or damage.


Happy to further advise if you wish.

 

[SoWhat]

Very, very, very bad advice. Listening to this guy will get you hurt. You don’t wait for totally Blue Skies, you wait for decent weather. Same thing with moving boats. If you’re in a hurry and are moving on a schedule rather than existing conditions, you are likely to suffer damage, get hurt or worse. The loss of the Bounty replica is a prime example of that.

Sounds like you were in fast movers. If I encountered marginal vfr in 172 I turned around. Very different in a boat. If you're 30 miles out and watching the black clouds bear down and your max speed is 10mph, then put your life jacket on. You're going to get hammered.

I think it is an opportunity to learn rough weather handling with an experienced skipper aboard. Waiting for perfect weather window is a missed opportunity.

The Bounty was a case of extreme negligence by the captain for taking the boat out during a hurricane. I don't recall advising anyone to head into a hurricane. Sooner or later you will caught by a fast moving T-Storm. Training will get you through it safely. Just as spin training will get you out of a spin. If you haven't trained for it, you're going to corkscrew in.

 

[JoeApicella]

I left Norfolk one of many trips north on the Bay with 2 36'Monks and my 43' Mainship. All three Captains with years of experience. The forecast called for 10-15 k out of the north and seas 1-2'. About an 2 hours into our destination all hell broke loose. Winds picked up to 25-30k and waves averaged 4'+ with some in the 6-8' size. The Bay can and does get nasty. Suggest you check the apps Smart Buoy and Predict Wind. PW will give you the forecast a week out for wind and waves, SB will give you actual wave height and wind in real time. It's not just the wave height that gets you, it's the period between waves. Look for at least a period of twice the height.
Best,
Joe Apicella
Glory Days

 

[Annapolis Skipper]

Hello from Annapolis where I earn my living as a yacht captain and coach and consultant. With the exception of an afternoon storm or squall, weather is the least of your concerns and I would not worry about it too much. We're talking summer on the Chesapeake. I have run boats up and down the Chesapeake for over 50 years--trailers, sailboats, runabouts, cruisers and am on the Bay at least 100 days a year. Please let me know asap how I can help. I am a little confused by your post--have you hired someone? Have you hired someone and feel that you need additional information? If that is the case, you should consider someone else. There are so many rules on this site that I am not sure how I can respond without upsetting somebody or what information I can provide. It does not even allow me to send you a PM. Please respond here. Thanks--and don't sweat (pun intended) the weather on the bay on the summer... Captain Paul Foer happy to talk with you!

 

[Knot Carin]

You should be able to find a good weather window with 2-3 days of southerly's this time of the year. Try using the this app:

https://www.windy.com

I am a weather guy and that app works very well for route planning and being able to "see" the actual and forecast conditions.

While I am not a trawler owner yet, I have chartered them and sailed the whole bay extensively since the 80's, and I never had any trouble finding a hole to pull into to get out of the weather. That is the joy of the Chesapeake. The worst tide and wind funnel / chokepoint I have experienced was in and around the Bay Bridge off Annapolis. To avoid that, you can make the nice trip through Kent Narrows, and maybe stop at the Red-Eye Dock Bar if the weather is too rough. Good Luck

 

[PMF1984]

Be interested to hear how you did today (Friday).

 

[stroutmail]

Many thanks for lots of very good advice.

It would be a mistake to assume that I did or do not trust the judgment of the captain I hired. He is very good, and has done a great job so far. I would highly recommend him. He balanced his role of "captain" and "teacher" very well.

I wanted advice from others too. It is written "A wise man seeks the counsel of many."

We successfully made it from Great Bridge thru Norfolk to Deltaville. Before we entered the bay at Hampton, the captain warned the trip might be rough, and wanted to be sure I was mentally prepared.

Sure enough, waves were maybe 1 to 3 feet, but only 2-3 seconds duration. And a Grand Banks 36 with waves pushing in the rear corner, ie quartering, which we had all day can be very "rocky rollee". 5 hours of that with the auto pilot on was about my limit...but I did adapt. I have been in waters with more wind and higher waves, but the short duration is very uncomfortable..not scary, just tiring...like driving on a very bumpy road or in a plane with constant turbulence.

The boat did a fabulous job..it just rolled, bobed, and yawed. Ted was a big help..he was the pathfinder and shared his experience a few hours ahead of us.

We had 15-20 mph wind..lots of whitecaps. Gusts 25 mph. Seas hitting on the rear corner or from the side. Waves not very big
..just VERY close together


Would I seek to avoid conditions like this in the future? Yes. Could I do it again (or with more wind and waves) if I had to in order to meet a deadline?..Yes

It was excellent training.

 

[78puget-trawler]

Interesting thread, just read it all at once. I think you made the proper decision to hire a skipper. Nothing wrong with caution, it saves lives.

 

[caltexflanc]

Glad you made it OK. Now you may understand why I posted the picture I did. Hope the rest of your journey is a lot more fun, it's a great cruise.

 

[bayview]

I have a simple rule for happy boating

When in doubt don't go out.

 

[mvweebles]

Looks like a great day to be on the Chesapeake! Breeze 5-10 from. No chop to speak of. Screenshot is for forecast wind conditions mid afternoon.

Nice boat, nice wx.

 

[stroutmail]

It was a beautiful day! Deltaville (Doziers) very nice marina..up before dawn...12 hours to Annapolis. Only rough water was wakes from ocean cargo ships and fast speed boats!

Amazing how much difference in speed with changes in tide. 1 mph slow going against, 1 mph fast going with. 7.5 mph to 9.5 mph hi low of range at 1800 rpm

 

[PMF1984]

Weather "Window" Advice Needed/Wanted

One odd thing (besides it being calm in the Chesapeake all day) I noticed was the guys in the fishing boats that cut in front of me, then yelled and waved me off (guess they didn’t have a radio) to not go over their lines. Must be a local custom.

Glad to got to Annapolis safe and sound.

 

[Porgy]

One of two things: They believe they are the stand-on vessel “engaged in fishing” or as has been told to me by more than one rockfisherman, they don’t know the rules of the road and they don’t care.

 

[AUXOPdwp]

One odd thing (besides it being calm in the Chesapeake all day) I noticed was the guys in the fishing boats that cut in front of me, then yelled and waved me off (guess they didn’t have a radio) to not go over their lines. Must be a local custom.

Glad to got to Annapolis safe and sound.

When teaching Rules Of The Road in CG Auxiliary Public Education classes, some of us highlight the fact that Chesapeake fishermen may employ "planer boards" to increase the number of rigs they troll. Charters or Head boats might deploy a dozen. Rec' boats not so many but the gear is expensive in either case, and, the boats are considerably less maneuverable. See this: https://www.yorkriver.net/trolling.html



In his book The Art Of Seamanship: Evolving Skills, Exploring Oceans, and Handling Wind, Waves and Oceans, Ralph Naranjo helps the reader understand facets and nuances not found in references such as Chapmans. He emphasizes incremental acquisition of knowledge & skills as we venture into new waters and circumstances.



"Wind, waves, weather and water demand the practiced art of seamanship. Planning and reacting to the unanticipated are the flip sides of seamanship. This blending of pre-voyage preparedness with effective on-the-water response is learned rather than inherent--together they define the art of seamanship." -- Author RALPH NARANJO


I'm always shocked by the huge compound wakes thrown by the Wanchese fleet of big 'Carolina Flares' as they exit/enter Oregon Inlet. I confess to cursing them for violently rocking me. Having transitioned from four decades of bluewater sailboat cruising to operating my 'fast trawler' (Sabre's description), I've become aware of the temptation to operate as though I'm driving an RV on regulated highways to yet another regulated campground. While everyone on the highways is obliged to honor strict regulations, the waterways are equally available to all who use them without near as much regulation.



If I find myself complaining too much about paddlers, planing boards, min-wake zones, off station ATONs, discourteous trophy boats, etc., I won't worry so much about people saying "He thinks it's all about him", but rather that I'm not a good enough seaman to discover and adjust to real world circumstances I encounter, without damage or injury.