WiFi Network Config for Weebles (Simple - sorta)

[rslifkin]

I run Unifi gear for APs at home, but on the boat, I think I'd stay in the Peplink ecosystem for added APs as I'm already using their router and not running a PC to host the Unifi controller. So in terms of power usage and convenience, that seems the most practical.



If the Netgear APs don't allow channel selection, I'd say they're solidly consumer grade hardware regardless of how they're branded. And I'd consider dumping them for something better.

 

[twistedtree]

This Unifi gear is the stuff from Ubiquity, right? I hated it. Couldn't get past step one setting it up because you have to buy into their whole galactic infrastructure, cloud management stuff to run it. I totally get it if you are managing a building full of gear, but I have a boat with one, maybe two APs. To get anything other than incredibly rudimentary management, e.g I couldn't even set up a static IP address on the AP, you have to buy one of their management consoles or gateways, the cheapest of which was $200 or so. No longer can you manage their stuff using a web browser.


I packed it all up and returned it.

 

[rslifkin]

This Unifi gear is the stuff from Ubiquity, right? I hated it. Couldn't get past step one setting it up because you have to buy into their whole galactic infrastructure, cloud management stuff to run it. I totally get it if you are managing a building full of gear, but I have a boat with one, maybe two APs. To get anything other than incredibly rudimentary management, e.g I couldn't even set up a static IP address on the AP, you have to buy one of their management consoles or gateways, the cheapest of which was $200 or so. No longer can you manage their stuff using a web browser.


I packed it all up and returned it.

Yeah, that's the stuff. I wouldn't use it on the boat because of the management logistics, but at home I have a few of their access points. None of their other gear though. I just run the (free) controller software on a Windows server, no cloud subscription or extra hardware needed. Those are both options intended for people that don't want to run the controller software themselves.

I've been generally happy with their wifi gear as a budget alternative to expensive Cisco or other enterprise gear.

 

[twistedtree]

Yeah, that's the stuff. I wouldn't use it on the boat because of the management logistics, but at home I have a few of their access points. None of their other gear though. I just run the (free) controller software on a Windows server, no cloud subscription or extra hardware needed.

Interesting. Their web site only shows dedicated console devices. I asked tech support about it and they said the least expensive option was a $200 (I think that was the price) gateway box. Maybe things have changed, or maybe the support person was not up to speed on the alternatives.

 

[rslifkin]

Interesting. Their web site only shows dedicated console devices. I asked tech support about it and they said the least expensive option was a $200 (I think that was the price) gateway box. Maybe things have changed, or maybe the support person was not up to speed on the alternatives.

That's odd that they didn't mention the software. I'm pretty sure it's been available longer than the hardware controllers or the cloud offering. I know I've been using it since about 2015 and it was around a few years before that.

 

[Iggy]

Am I being goateed into a debate on this? Most likely not.

What "whole galactic infrastructure"? It come in three models of what they call the Dream Machine and Dream Router. The Cloud key is the old stuff from 3 or 4 years ago. Just to point out, there is no cloud subscription, its free.

The first one $220 its round and almost 5x5 inches with POE and a SD slot to record video. Five ethernet ports and a built in AP. For larger boats, it may not be a bad device to use.

The 2nd $350 is 17Wx1.75Hx10D" Much bigger but more powerful CPU. Hard drive for slot for recording video. No POE ports and no built in AP. Nine Ethernet ports.

The 3rd, the same as the 2nd one with POE. Cost $450

All with a small LED status screen and APs can be added with up to 4 wireless networks.

To get back onto the topic of interference. The web page has a utility that you can run that will analyze interference and suggest what channels to stay away from.

For $220 bucks! Thats the cost of most home routers that can't do half of what this does. Ok, I am NUTS!

This is not for everyone, but choices are good and knowing what's out there. You may want it for your home and stop paying subscription fees to see camera or door bell activity.

https://www.ui.com/consoles#compare

 

[Iggy]

That's odd that they didn't mention the software. I'm pretty sure it's been available longer than the hardware controllers or the cloud offering. I know I've been using it since about 2015 and it was around a few years before that.

Yes, the software has been around longer. Its up to 7.2.97 version.

 

[twistedtree]

Am I being goateed into a debate on this? Most likely not.

What "whole galactic infrastructure"? It come in three models of what they call the Dream Machine and Dream Router. The Cloud key is the old stuff from 3 or 4 years ago. Just to point out, there is no cloud subscription, its free.

The first one $220 its round and almost 5x5 inches with POE and a SD slot to record video. Five ethernet ports and a built in AP. For larger boats, it may not be a bad device to use.

The 2nd $350 is 17Wx1.75Hx10D" Much bigger but more powerful CPU. Hard drive for slot for recording video. No POE ports and no built in AP. Nine Ethernet ports.

The 3rd, the same as the 2nd one with POE. Cost $450

All with a small LED status screen and APs can be added with up to 4 wireless networks.

To get back onto the topic of interference. The web page has a utility that you can run that will analyze interference and suggest what channels to stay away from.

For $220 bucks! Thats the cost of most home routers that can't do half of what this does. Ok, I am NUTS!

This is not for everyone, but choices are good and knowing what's out there. You may want it for your home and stop paying subscription fees to see camera or door bell activity.

https://www.ui.com/consoles#compare

I don't mean to goat you into a debate. I had just hoped to use Ubiquity APs and it wasn't possible/reasonable in my situation. I bought product, wasted several hours trying to get them to work, including most of that time with a tech support person before it became clear that I needed a separate box of some sort to manage the APs. This is the AP I wanted to use, for $99 each:


https://store.ui.com/products/u6-lite-us


It's ONLY an AP. Nothing else. I have a router and other stuff that I'm happy with. With past Ubiquity products, there is a builtin web server so you can configure the device via a web browser. The literature talks about supporting both a UniFi OS Console, plus local management, so I figured it still has the web interface. It does, but it turns out pretty much all you can do is set the SSID for the AP.


For management they refer you to the Dream Machine Pro which appears to be a 2U rack mounter machine. I don't want that to manage two $99 APs. There are other options, but all appear to be additional boxes that I need to install and power to act as the management console. If I needed/wanted a Ubiquity router then I could probably find one that also includes the management console. But I'm already committed to Peplink on that front, and don't think U even has anything comparable.


What I don't see is a downloadable application that I can run on Windows or Mac OS that let's me do the management. Maybe I'm just not seeing it? If there were such a thing I would probably have gone forward with it.


I see how this all works fine if you have a whole U network, and how it's especially attractive if you are managing a larger U network. But at least the dedicated POE APs are unusable unless yo have bought into a large network. Or at least that was my take on it.

 

[rslifkin]

I don't mean to goat you into a debate. I had just hoped to use Ubiquity APs and it wasn't possible/reasonable in my situation. I bought product, wasted several hours trying to get them to work, including most of that time with a tech support person before it became clear that I needed a separate box of some sort to manage the APs. This is the AP I wanted to use, for $99 each:


https://store.ui.com/products/u6-lite-us


It's ONLY an AP. Nothing else. I have a router and other stuff that I'm happy with. With past Ubiquity products, there is a builtin web server so you can configure the device via a web browser. The literature talks about supporting both a UniFi OS Console, plus local management, so I figured it still has the web interface. It does, but it turns out pretty much all you can do is set the SSID for the AP.


For management they refer you to the Dream Machine Pro which appears to be a 2U rack mounter machine. I don't want that to manage two $99 APs. There are other options, but all appear to be additional boxes that I need to install and power to act as the management console. If I needed/wanted a Ubiquity router then I could probably find one that also includes the management console. But I'm already committed to Peplink on that front, and don't think U even has anything comparable.


What I don't see is a downloadable application that I can run on Windows or Mac OS that let's me do the management. Maybe I'm just not seeing it? If there were such a thing I would probably have gone forward with it.


I see how this all works fine if you have a whole U network, and how it's especially attractive if you are managing a larger U network. But at least the dedicated POE APs are unusable unless yo have bought into a large network. Or at least that was my take on it.

The piece you're looking for is the "Unifi Network Application" found on their downloads page: https://www.ui.com/download/unifi/


There are Windows, Mac, and Linux versions, and it's basically the same software that runs on the hardware they sell. It presents as a single web interface you use to manage all of the APs (and any other Unifi gear you have). Below is an example screenshot of mine showing the 3 APs in the house.


In my case, the 3 Unifi APs are running off an Aruba POE switch I bought used and my firewall/router runs pfSense, so the APs are the only Unifi gear on my network. But while the need to run the controller software is no big deal at home (easy enough to add another VM to run it), I don't have any system on the boat that could support it, so I'd need to add something and suffer the increased power use. At that point, the Peplink or other options make more sense.

 

[twistedtree]

The piece you're looking for is the "Unifi Network Application" found on their downloads page: https://www.ui.com/download/unifi/


There are Windows, Mac, and Linux versions, and it's basically the same software that runs on the hardware they sell. It presents as a single web interface you use to manage all of the APs (and any other Unifi gear you have). Below is an example screenshot of mine showing the 3 APs in the house.


In my case, the 3 Unifi APs are running off an Aruba POE switch I bought used and my firewall/router runs pfSense, so the APs are the only Unifi gear on my network. But while the need to run the controller software is no big deal at home (easy enough to add another VM to run it), I don't have any system on the boat that could support it, so I'd need to add something and suffer the increased power use. At that point, the Peplink or other options make more sense.

Ok, thanks. I did a search on their site for that and it didn’t come up. At least not in the first page or two. Funny the support guy didn’t tell me about it either, and only brought up the ~$200 box. Too bad, might have been a good solution.

 

[pjtemplin]

As mentioned, I plan to land my NEMO N2K Gateway (HERE) on the last LAN port of my Pepwave BR1 5G router. What I can't wrap my head around is how will I access this data? Main reason for it is to run a PC-based navigation program (Coastal Explorer in this case) using the AIS/GPS/Radar information from the N2K sensors. Will I need to configure anything, or is it just plug-and-play?

I don't have experience with the Rose Point, but the good news is you're using hardware and software from the same vendor, so your success is likely to be better than if it was separate. Worst case, you'd probably have to extract the IP address of the NEMO and configure that into CE. Best case, CE can auto-discover the NEMO through either a deep protocol or by recognizing the NEMO's MAC address (a hardware "name" permanently stored in the unit, twelve hexadecimal characters long, and the first half of that name represents the manufacturer in some way; CE likely knows what patterns to expect for NEMO gadgets).

 

[SteveK]

Today I finished my on board wifi hotspot using an old laptop.
With windows up to eight devices can connect to the hotspot. The laptop is set to receive from the marina wifi system.
we had three cell phones, two tablets and another laptop running through this setup with no lag time. Away from the marina, as long as my cell phone has signal it becomes the hotspot for the onboard laptop network.
Took some googling to find the settings needed to allow system reboot every 12 hours and automatically turn on the laptop hotspot.
Now the onboard wifi devices are connected to this hub 24/7 so I can remotely/or locally view them. Time will tell how long this setup will last as it is an old laptop.

 

[bowball]

I’ve had unifi and Cisco enterprise systems at my house as my employers maintained them. Now I use Orbi which I think is much easier.
For the boat, the wifi speed isn’t as important as starlink is much slower. Peplink and their AP’s work well.

 

[mvweebles]

Pepwave Performance compare (incl Starlink)

I ran some speed tests this morning comparing my Pepwave setup against the Marina WiFi that underpins my network. In other words, does my Pepwave with antenna improve reception? I also tested Starlink. One surprise - more later.

I ran three speed tests of each, then averaged the readings and calculated a standard deviation to give a sense of stability. Note, folks universally discuss Download speeds - latency ("Ping" in SpeedTest.net terminology) and Jitter (stability) are important for voice and video communications. Many applications will crash with excessive values (latency >100ms; jitter >50ms).

See attached charts.

Observations:

1. When given a choice, 5hz WiFi greatly outperforms 2.4hz. The Marina's 2.4hz network is essentially unusable whereas the 5hz network is very good. If there are Network wonks reading this, an explanation would be welcomed.
2. SURPRISE: Raw 5hz Marina WiFi had faster speeds than via Pepwave network (thoughts??)
3. Pepwave was a more stable, consistent performer but not as solid as the raw Marina 5hz network
4. Starlink was very good, however I think more tests over a longer time horizon would show greater performance variability.

There are some flaws in this methodology - I can tell you that SpeedTest.net connected to various access points and servers which could account for the difference in performance, especially between Pepwave and Marina 5hz. Also, this was all done in the wee hours of one morning - a couple repeats during the day would be nice. But still, this is useful data.

Hope this helps - comments welcomed.

Peter

 

[Iggy]

Most likely there are no flaws. This could go back to what I mentioned before. The channels that the 2.5 band is using. Plus something that I have not mentioned is "channel width". Meaning if they are using what is called "HT40" vs "HT20" then that channel can spill over into other channels causing more interface.

Also there are more 2.5 devices out there vs the 5 band. What I mean is, more traffic on the 2.5 band.

Another possibility, but I doubt it. Is your antenna picking up one band better than another.

 

[rslifkin]

It's normal for the 5ghz band to be faster than 2.4. Maximum speeds are much higher and there are less channel crowding issues. The 2.4 band is longer range, which doesn't help the crowding and interference problems. So it can definitely get slow.



As far as why you're losing so much speed through the Pepwave on 5ghz wifi, I'm not sure. That might come down to settings somewhere in the system. You have the internal wifi access point in the Pepwave turned off, right? If that's left on, it'll be handling the marina network as well as your own through 1 wifi radio, which kills performance. Much better to let the radio in the Pepwave handle the marina wifi and the separate access point handle your boat wifi.

 

[mvweebles]

Also there are more 2.5 devices out there vs the 5 band. What I mean is, more traffic on the 2.5 band.

My thinking is that at 5AM, even in a marina of old farts who are likely early risers like me, not much traffic.

As far as why you're losing so much speed through the Pepwave on 5ghz wifi, I'm not sure. That might come down to settings somewhere in the system. You have the internal wifi access point in the Pepwave turned off, right? If that's left on, it'll be handling the marina network as well as your own through 1 wifi radio, which kills performance. Much better to let the radio in the Pepwave handle the marina wifi and the separate access point handle your boat wifi.

Probably is some setting (Iggy's guidance on channel selection hints at this too). Without dragging this thread into a 1:1 help session, can you point me to any material to tweak settings? Both on router and AP?

Thanks -

Peter

 

[Iggy]

It's normal for the 5ghz band to be faster than 2.4. Maximum speeds are much higher and there are less channel crowding issues. The 2.4 band is longer range, which doesn't help the crowding and interference problems. So it can definitely get slow.



As far as why you're losing so much speed through the Pepwave on 5ghz wifi, I'm not sure. That might come down to settings somewhere in the system. You have the internal wifi access point in the Pepwave turned off, right? If that's left on, it'll be handling the marina network as well as your own through 1 wifi radio, which kills performance. Much better to let the radio in the Pepwave handle the marina wifi and the separate access point handle your boat wifi.

I am not sure on your point of using the Pepwaves WiFi radio to do both. I have used my clubs wifi though my Pepwave to watch moves. No problem there for me. But I have never measured it. But this would also come down to, how much internal memory is in the Pepwave for buffering.

 

[rslifkin]

My thinking is that at 5AM, even in a marina of old farts who are likely early risers like me, not much traffic.




Probably is some setting (Iggy's guidance on channel selection hints at this too). Without dragging this thread into a 1:1 help session, can you point me to any material to tweak settings? Both on router and AP?

Thanks -

Peter

The biggest thing I'd check on the Pepwave gear is that the internal access point in the BR1 is set to disabled and only the external access point is broadcasting your boat wifi. If there are any settings for the wifi as wan feature, it might be worth playing with those as well.

If your good Starlink performance was going through the Pepwave then I wouldn't worry about channels and such for your onboard wifi, as it's already doing fine.

 

[Iggy]

I just down loaded the manual. Under "Advanced WiFi Settings" and "WiFi Wan Settings"
You can change "Channel Selection" and "Channel Width". Also "Power Output".

But before you change the channel setting I would use the WiFianalyzer app to see which channels to move away from.

 

[SteveK]

5G is faster than 2.4 at shorter distances
2.4 is more standard with devices and works longer distances.
The wifi analyzer is a useful tool

My Marina as an example appears to throttle the signal. The managers admit they do not do anything, geeks set it up, etc. I did the speed test and found the download lower than upload which is reverse to what is found usually.
When on board I use my cell phone as hotspot with intelligent switching from marina WIFI to cell data so I can stream video and surf without interruptions. That only works if there is cell data available.

 

[SteveK]

I just down loaded the manual. Under "Advanced WiFi Settings" and "WiFi Wan Settings"
You can change "Channel Selection" and "Channel Width". Also "Power Output".

But before you change the channel setting I would use the WiFianalyzer app to see which channels to move away from.

Umm, yes you can change the output of a router you control. But not the signal being sent.
So you are suggesting change to a channel away from the receive channel to reduce interference?

 

[twistedtree]

Weebles, I think your download and upload numbers are reversed. With few exceptions, download will always be higher than upload.


When you use the Peplink to connect to the marina 5g, how are you then connected to the Peplink? If via wifi, then you will be using 2.4g between your laptop and peplink, so that can/will become the bottleneck. I expect this is why your peplink using the marina 5g is slower than you using the marina 5g directly - basically you have inserted a 2.4g link in the middle. Unless of course you are hardwired to the Peplink, in which case, Never Mind.

 

[Iggy]

Umm, yes you can change the output of a router you control. But not the signal being sent.
So you are suggesting change to a channel away from the receive channel to reduce interference?

I would change the wan channels first but only looking at the app first. But thats me

 

[rslifkin]

I would change the wan channels first but only looking at the app first. But thats me

You won't be able to influence what channel is being used for the WiFi as WAN. That's determined by the access point the Pepwave is connecting to, not by the client device.

 

[pjtemplin]

2.4GHz was the original band. It overlaps with a gazillion other household things: camera flash triggers, cordless phones, baby monitors, you name it. Further, the channel assignments are ridiculous: the typical RF bandwidth of 2.4GHz wireless networking is so broad that your device occupies five channels simultaneously. Given that the US regs say there are only 11 channels, things are really congested (and 2.4GHz wireless networking actually bends the rules when maximizing the channel usage). That said, the RF nature of the signal and the availability of specialized antennas means lower bandwidth signals can actually be sent tens of miles.


5GHz Wifi has far more optimized channel spacing/RF bandwidth, and hence generally performs better. It has shorter range though, so at range extremes it may be degraded. Some flavors in the 5GHz band allow multiple parallel signals to increase bandwidth; those are technologies that can burst fast but in the face of lots of users, you'll likely see slowdowns from your peak rates.


Here's the slightly geek breakdown of the 2.4GHz channel stuff. In the US, there are 11 "legal" channels, numbered 1-11. 2.4GHz wireless networking occupies not only the channel you think you're on, but two below it and two above it. The most optimal spacing of channels ends up being 1, 6, and 11. If you're following along, you're starting to wonder what's up with that? Yes, it is quite odd: if you use channel 1, you're actually using channel -1, 0, 1, 2, and 3. Channel 6 uses 4,5,6,7,8, and yes, channel 11 actually uses 9,10,11,12,13. Those extensions are in fact permitted even though they extend beyond the technical definition of what channels are allowed.


I saw a comment above where Internet bandwidth was listed as faster for upload than download, when typical numbers are the other way around. The Wifi itself is normally symmetric unless there's a vast difference in antenna type between the endpoints: you're usually going to see the same upload/download speeds. Most residential and low-grade commercial Internet feeds are asymmetric: download speeds are generally faster than upload speeds. Higher-grade commercial Internet feeds are symmetric again, though most marinas just aren't going to spend those kinds of dollars on their Internet. With all of that in mind, those speed tests are only as valid as the connection exists: if you're doing a speed test on a marina connection, you're still contending with everyone (and everything?) else at the marina. If that pipe is bigger for download but the other users are really going nuts with Netflix and other high-download-bandwidth tools, it's quite possible the upload appears faster than download at those times.

 

[twistedtree]

I have tried two of the phone apps referenced earlier in hopes of identifying band and channel congestion that might explain why 5g doesn't work with my APs on the boat. The two suggested were wifi Anayzer and Ubiquity's WIFIman.


Between the two of them I can see what devices are on my network, what other wifi APs are within range, and I can ping and traceroute etc. But this doesn't help, I don't think, and just repeats info that I can readily find elsewhere.


A number of years ago I saw an app that actually plotted "congestion" across the channel range so you could see where other APs were concentrated and where there was less congestion. I think I need something like that to figure out who's stomping on my AP's 5G signal.


I can't find such an app, at least not reading the descriptions, and I don't want to download and try each. Has anyone seen such an app? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

 

[twistedtree]

You won't be able to influence what channel is being used for the WiFi as WAN. That's determined by the access point the Pepwave is connecting to, not by the client device.

I thought I read about some sort of dynamic channel assignment so APs can spread out channel use, as needed. Is that done unilaterally by the AP? I have seen my laptop connect on different channels to the same AP, but don't know the mechanism behind it.

 

[rslifkin]

I thought I read about some sort of dynamic channel assignment so APs can spread out channel use, as needed. Is that done unilaterally by the AP? I have seen my laptop connect on different channels to the same AP, but don't know the mechanism behind it.

It depends on how the AP is configured (and the APs in question). Many do support auto channel selection although the selection method and frequency of re-assessment varies. However, it's not uncommon for APs to be configured on a fixed channel without using the auto feature.

 

[mvweebles]

Weebles, I think your download and upload numbers are reversed. With few exceptions, download will always be higher than upload.


When you use the Peplink to connect to the marina 5g, how are you then connected to the Peplink? If via wifi, then you will be using 2.4g between your laptop and peplink, so that can/will become the bottleneck. I expect this is why your peplink using the marina 5g is slower than you using the marina 5g directly - basically you have inserted a 2.4g link in the middle. Unless of course you are hardwired to the Peplink, in which case, Never Mind.

You are correct. Made a mistake when I built the graph. Hate when that happens.

Also correct that I am wireless into my AP (Pepwave). I have a remedial question. I know how to get into my router (IP Address) to change configurations. I would have thought I could use the same control panel to change AP but doesn't seem to work that way. Any guidance?

Peter