2nd start of fire in electrical equipment, what are your experiences ?

[luna]

The resolution to your problem lies within this.

Terminating Bare Wire Ends

Learn why and how to terminate bare wire ends.

marinehowto.com

And from TF's sister.

Wire too big for Victron charge controller - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Hey all, we recently installed some solar panels on our sailboat and are about 80% done with the project , with one small hiccup - the 8 awg wire we installed is too big for the 75/15 Victron MPPT

www.cruisersforum.com

Have you ever read Victron's Wiring Unlimited

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

Doing so is likely worth your time.

 

[Mambo42]

The resolution to your problem lies within this.

Terminating Bare Wire Ends

Learn why and how to terminate bare wire ends.

marinehowto.com

And from TF's sister.

Wire too big for Victron charge controller - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Hey all, we recently installed some solar panels on our sailboat and are about 80% done with the project , with one small hiccup - the 8 awg wire we installed is too big for the 75/15 Victron MPPT

www.cruisersforum.com

Have you ever read Victron's Wiring Unlimited

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

Doing so is likely worth your time.

That is all very nice and I am aware of the book that is written by the founder of Victron, however I am getting the idea you have not read the additional information I have given.

First: I have not done the installation, I have paid an official company a lot of money to have the installation done, in fact I was not even present when they did it.

Second: Certain cables are simply not available in the countries around the Med. You can search for a year, you won't find them. So claiming that the wrong cable was used is merely a statement that everyone in that country is aware of, you will have to do with what is available.

Third: The combination of the ferrule, which is sold in Greece, in combination with the cable that had to be used (since the correct cable cannot be delivered) does not fit in the connection block. Therefore, instead of going 1 size smaller it was decided to not use a ferrule. If you want to be 100 % correct the only conclusion would have been that this equipment cannot and should not be installed in these countries.

Fourth and for me the most important part: Also the cables that did have a ferrule do come loose on a regular basis. So the ferrule is not the holy grail, it is not going to stop the screws from loosening up.

Fifth: The loosening up of the screws is the main problem and I need to find a solution for that. Since I cannot get the correct cable and ferrule, other than by jumping in a car, drive 2000 km to the Netherlands and try to source it there, then drive back for another 2000 km and install it.

So the main questions are: 'has this happened to anyone else and how do I stop those screws from coming loose. It also happens on the chargers and everything else that has this type of connection, it was and is not limited to this one MPPT controller. And yes, in the other connections a ferrule was used, but also they come loose. My guess is that they come loose due to the vibrations of the boat when slamming into waves for a prolonged period of time. We do have an area here where it can be dead calm, but conditions can change quickly and then you are looking at waves with an interval of 1 to 2 seconds. We can feel the shiver going through the whole boat when that happens. Since we have no other vibrations in the boat I think I can draw the conclusion that this is the cause of the loosening up.

 

[mvweebles]

My guess is that they come loose due to the vibrations of the boat when slamming into waves for a prolonged period of time. We do have an area here where it can be dead calm, but conditions can change quickly and then you are looking at waves with an interval of 1 to 2 seconds. We can feel the shiver going through the whole boat when that happens. Since we have no other vibrations in the boat I think I can draw the conclusion that this is the cause of the loosening up.

Mambo - personally, I do not think sea state is consequential for screws loosening. General vessel vibration is, but not sea state induced oscillations, though perhaps the cable isn't well supported and it's motion contributes. Early in the thread someone suggested Loctite. I don't recall if VIctron uses star washers or the like, but something like that may help too. Personally, I've never noticed the issue but I can tell you I will check carefully when I return to Weebles in a few months.

I'm sorry, but I have to push-back on the esteemed electrical wonks who have said some variation of it's an install issue. Victron forces you into a corner where the only solution is a bastardized one such as cutting strands. The data sheet for the Victron 100/50MPPT states it's terminals accept up to 6AWG (16mm2) connectors. If you want to keep voltage drop down to 3% at 50A, that means the MPPT can be no further away from the solar array than 7-1/2 feet (4-1/2 meters - Blue Sea Wire Chart here). That's a short leash.

Peter

 

[Mambo42]

Mambo - personally, I do not think sea state is consequential for screws loosening. General vessel vibration is, but not sea state induced oscillations, though perhaps the cable isn't well supported and it's motion contributes. Early in the thread someone suggested Loctite. I don't recall if VIctron uses star washers or the like, but something like that may help too. Personally, I've never noticed the issue but I can tell you I will check carefully when I return to Weebles in a few months.

The whole installation is in the lazarette and engine vibrations are minimal there. Even in the ER the engine vibrations are minimal. I have other equipment, that also uses connection blocks, which do not come loose.
The only movement I have in the lazarette is the pitching movement. The boat is stabilized, we don't roll (perhaps 1 or 2 degrees), so it is only the pitching movement that can exert a force on the cables and the connections.

As for the loctite, which in itself sounds like a good idea, I am wondering if that conducts electricity and if not: 'what does it do for the overall connection ?'
If loctite is an insulator it means you are basically building a restriction and that can cause an overheat situation and subsequent fire again.

What I am wondering though is why this type of connection is not used ? It would instantly solve all problems and would be 100 % safe.

 

[Choices]

Offshore we have gone from screw clamp cages, typical IEC electronics terminal blocks to spring type. The spring type continue to tighten and stay tight in high vibration.

The problem is amperage, I think they stop around 40amp.

There is a European ferrule that you crimp to the wire end, and you could also tin the ends.

Sorry, but this just looks like a poor wiring job. You might consider going through all of it and seeing what you find.

Twice in a month is a tell. Also if vibration was that bad the electronic connections will start going soon

 

[mvweebles]

Not sure how it will be translated to boats and RVs, but the off grid builders are integreting circuit protection and MPPTs into next generation of inverter chargers. They are even including discharge capacitors for large battery banks. These have very large capacity for solar arrays - 16kw solar input and up so mounting lugs are sized appropriately. Monitoring is off the motherboard so very detailed and integrated with no USB/VE cables and expansion slots cobbled together.

I'm sure some will argue having everything in one box makes it vulnerable to single failure which while true, ignores the many, many small points of failure in a Victron system vulnerable to install challenges such the one Mambo has highlighted.

I run Victron. It's fine kit and I've learned to enjoy it. But I see Victron's strategy to sell a box of parts as being vulnerable in the market. I look forward to the day where my crimpers don't get used as much.

Peter

 

[Greg QS]

Mambo I can here your frustration. These type of connections are use widely in the marine world. They are used in vessel that see much more use and abuse than yours. So why are you having this problem throughout your Vessels regardless of manufacture. I think you have a installation issue.

When using these type of terminals. Make sure you fully open the terminal. Second make sure you are getting full embedment of the wire into the fitting. Third clamp down to the correct specification.

The full embedment is the key. When fully embedded int to the terminal the screw Squashes the wire and creates a bulge of wire after the screw so it cannot slip out. Just like a crimp connection. If you only catch the tip of the wire not the mid point of the wire the crip fitting tends to fail.

Look at the red wire. Bad installation. Black wire. . The embedment looks better. You can see the squash of the wire. However you can see some Sodder on the tips of the wire. These fittings are for bare wire stranded wire not wire that has been stiffened with Sodder.

A final note. Loose connections cause heat and arcing . Arcing causes poor connections due to the burn mark they leave. It is an endless circle till failure. Simply tightening a loose arcing fitting does not fix the problem. You need to disconnect your problem connections, Inspect, cut back, clean terminal and re install. Or it is an endless cycle till somethin like this happens.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm sorry, but I have to push-back on the esteemed electrical wonks who have said some variation of it's an install issue. Victron forces you into a corner where the only solution is a bastardized one such as cutting strands. The data sheet for the Victron 100/50MPPT states it's terminals accept up to 6AWG (16mm2) connectors. If you want to keep voltage drop down to 3% at 50A, that means the MPPT can be no further away from the solar array than 7-1/2 feet (4-1/2 meters - Blue Sea Wire Chart here). That's a short leash.

You'd rarely see 50A on the input side of one of those in the real world though. Typically you'd have a situation like 60V on the panel side and 24V on the battery side. The 50A limit is on the battery side, so you'd only see 20A on the panel side at full output in that situation.

 

[Bmarler]

I think the locktite solution will work without ruining the electrical connection. But, I would add the thread locker after making the connection. Just a drop on the screw. It will creep in the threads and secure the connection.
I am a wondering what the true cause of the loosening is though. I wonder if it might be heat more than vibration. Heat expands the wire, then at night it cools and contracts. Repeat, repeat, repeat…
With the cable being the biggest thing that fits the terminal block there isn’t much room for the expansion.
Just a thought.

 

[luna]

That is all very nice and I am aware of the book that is written by the founder of Victron, however I am getting the idea you have not read the additional information I have given.

First: I have not done the installation, I have paid an official company a lot of money to have the installation done, in fact I was not even present when they did it.

Second: Certain cables are simply not available in the countries around the Med. You can search for a year, you won't find them. So claiming that the wrong cable was used is merely a statement that everyone in that country is aware of, you will have to do with what is available.

Third: The combination of the ferrule, which is sold in Greece, in combination with the cable that had to be used (since the correct cable cannot be delivered) does not fit in the connection block. Therefore, instead of going 1 size smaller it was decided to not use a ferrule. If you want to be 100 % correct the only conclusion would have been that this equipment cannot and should not be installed in these countries.

Fourth and for me the most important part: Also the cables that did have a ferrule do come loose on a regular basis. So the ferrule is not the holy grail, it is not going to stop the screws from loosening up.

Fifth: The loosening up of the screws is the main problem and I need to find a solution for that. Since I cannot get the correct cable and ferrule, other than by jumping in a car, drive 2000 km to the Netherlands and try to source it there, then drive back for another 2000 km and install it.

So the main questions are: 'has this happened to anyone else and how do I stop those screws from coming loose. It also happens on the chargers and everything else that has this type of connection, it was and is not limited to this one MPPT controller. And yes, in the other connections a ferrule was used, but also they come loose. My guess is that they come loose due to the vibrations of the boat when slamming into waves for a prolonged period of time. We do have an area here where it can be dead calm, but conditions can change quickly and then you are looking at waves with an interval of 1 to 2 seconds. We can feel the shiver going through the whole boat when that happens. Since we have no other vibrations in the boat I think I can draw the conclusion that this is the cause of the loosening up.

In an effort to help you, I've read and understand everything that you have written on this issue.

The MHT article that I linked described the ferrule and it's crimper that worked. If these items are not available in Greece, (I have not checked) I would get them from the closest location and have them shipped to your location. Total weight, about 1kg.

I would also get the torque measuring screwdriver (or =) mentioned in the MHT article. Terminal tightness is key. I would not use Locktite on the terminal screw, even though it would not affect the electrical connection (unless you got really messy with it) which takes place under the plate in the terminal block.

With respect to the marine grade wire not available after looking for a year,......... balderdash!
I found this in a 5 min. google search.

You have likely heard of Nautilus Yacht Equipment as they state that they have been around your neighbourhood for now over 30 years and have multiple, about 10, retail locations in Greece.

They have according to their website in stock at present Ancor (yep, the same brand as in the US of A) 10 ga. marine wire that you can buy by the metre.

Κόκκινο επικαστερωμένο καλώδιο *Με το μέτρο

Κόκκινο επικαστερωμένο καλώδιο *Με το μέτρο

nautilus.gr

I think they have both red and black in stock.

Always on a budget, if this was me I'd get the 2 conductor cable and if need be, strip the outer sheath off.
It's in stock as well.

Διπλό πλακέ επικασ. καλώδιο 10/2 AWG (2x5 mm2) *Με το μέτρο

Διπλό πλακέ επικασ. καλώδιο 10/2 AWG (2x5 mm2) *Με το μέτρο

nautilus.gr

Shall we leave the rest up to you?

 

[Mambo42]

Mambo I can here your frustration. These type of connections are use widely in the marine world. They are used in vessel that see much more use and abuse than yours. So why are you having this problem throughout your Vessels regardless of manufacture. I think you have a installation issue.

When using these type of terminals. Make sure you fully open the terminal. Second make sure you are getting full embedment of the wire into the fitting. Third clamp down to the correct specification.

The full embedment is the key. When fully embedded int to the terminal the screw Squashes the wire and creates a bulge of wire after the screw so it cannot slip out. Just like a crimp connection. If you only catch the tip of the wire not the mid point of the wire the crip fitting tends to fail.

Look at the red wire. Bad installation. Black wire. . The embedment looks better. You can see the squash of the wire. However you can see some Sodder on the tips of the wire. These fittings are for bare wire stranded wire not wire that has been stiffened with Sodder.

A final note. Loose connections cause heat and arcing . Arcing causes poor connections due to the burn mark they leave. It is an endless circle till failure. Simply tightening a loose arcing fitting does not fix the problem. You need to disconnect your problem connections, Inspect, cut back, clean terminal and re install. Or it is an endless cycle till somethin like this happens.

The following pictures are just a test, to see how much of the cable actually goes inside the block and therefore I cleaned about 1 cm worth of insulation, so I have about 1 cm of open strands. When I put that into the block only 5 mm goes inside and of the 5 mm perhaps 3 mm is actually grabbed by the screw.

I am not aware of a special maritime MPPT controller, this is the one that was sold to me as MPPT controller for a boat.

Based on my test I have to conclude that this is just a bare minimum of cable that you can stick into this connection block. Also, to the top I have extra space, but in width I don't have the space and that is why the shoe (the one that is sold in Greece) makes the whole combination not fit into this block.

The heating of the connection starts when the screw loosens up. From there it goes downhill.

Btw the reason that the cable looks the way it does is more because it was stuck in the burned controller. I had to twist and pull it to get it out, so the way the cable looks now is not the way it was inserted and attached before.

 

[lwarden]

I'm with Luna on this. A ferrule is the best solution to this. You will likely have to test out the largest size that will fit the terminal and trim down the wire a bit to fit the ferrule. You want to use one without an insulator, like this.

https://www.grainger.com/product/797UY1?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-5y1BhC-ARIsAAM_oKl_ZG_E3kXKjQrehtqvHW9CGTi0FA6jOwkW9GwsKeQgOjzORfklrksaAnGXEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

We use these ferrules to build machines and specifically avoid using bare wire in terminals due to the issues you are seeing. Vibration and heat cycles allow the copper wire to flatten and redistribute the strands which can make the connection loose. It's likely not the screws loosening up, but the wires becoming displaced and moving. However, using blue Loctite on the threads is a reasonable precaution. I would take a picture when you tighten the block and when you recheck them I wouldn't be surprised if the screws are still in the same position.
If you are still concerned, add a thermocouple to the block and monitor the temperature over time to see if it rises due to increased resistance.
Lastly, ensure the wires are supported as close as is practically possible to the terminal block.

 

[Mambo42]

In an effort to help you, I've read and understand everything that you have written on this issue.

The MHT article that I linked described the ferrule and it's crimper that worked. If these items are not available in Greece, (I have not checked) I would get them from the closest location and have them shipped to your location. Total weight, about 1kg.

I would also get the torque measuring screwdriver (or =) mentioned in the MHT article. Terminal tightness is key. I would not use Locktite on the terminal screw, even though it would not affect the electrical connection (unless you got really messy with it) which takes place under the plate in the terminal block.

With respect to the marine grade wire not available after looking for a year,......... balderdash!
I found this in a 5 min. google search.

You have likely heard of Nautilus Yacht Equipment as they state that they have been around your neighbourhood for now over 30 years and have multiple, about 10, retail locations in Greece.

They have according to their website in stock at present Ancor (yep, the same brand as in the US of A) 10 ga. marine wire that you can buy by the metre.

Κόκκινο επικαστερωμένο καλώδιο *Με το μέτρο

Κόκκινο επικαστερωμένο καλώδιο *Με το μέτρο

nautilus.gr

I think they have both red and black in stock.

Always on a budget, if this was me I'd get the 2 conductor cable and if need be, strip the outer sheath off.
It's in stock as well.

Διπλό πλακέ επικασ. καλώδιο 10/2 AWG (2x5 mm2) *Με το μέτρο

Διπλό πλακέ επικασ. καλώδιο 10/2 AWG (2x5 mm2) *Με το μέτρο

nautilus.gr

Shall we leave the rest up to you?

On paper it sounds all very nice that you can get everything in Greece, reality is different however. I know Nautilus well, they have shops all over Greece. But that does not mean that everything on their webshop is actually always available.
Example ?
I have ordered and paid 5 Victron VE direct to USB cables in both Turkey and Greece. Online you can find them in the web shops, but that does not mean they actually have it available. The ones in Turkey never arrived, so I lost the money and had to leave Turkey without them.
The ones in Greece I bought after the company had ensured me they had them on stock. They promised delivery in 3 days after receiving the money. I wired the money, they received it 10 min later and then it started. Reality was they did not have them on stock at all and 3 weeks later I still had not received them. That is when we had to leave Greece. Several weeks later I received a message that they have arrived, but problem is.......I am no longer in Greece.
And that is reality in Greece, Turkey, Croatia etc. You will happily find things on websites, they may even sell it to you, but that does not mean you will get it. What many companies do is offer it for sale and when there are enough orders they will order it from a producer in Europe. Then it will be shipped to Greece when the order is large enough.
So in real life you may be able to buy something now, when they have it on stock again, but you can be in for a long wait if they don't have it. I spoke with DG rubber about one of their suppliers in Greece, they told me that company orders once or twice a year, that is it. So if you happen to be looking for a cable when the stock is low you will be out of luck.
Since it is a boat and I had quite a bit of cables that had simply crumbled, I wanted fire retardant cables, which would not crumble (drying out because of heat) after a certain period of time. That cable was not available, but I did get the option to buy 50 mtr of both cables, in other words the whole roll. I needed 8. Price I got offered (by the supplier in Greece) was 8 euro per meter. So am I now to pay 800 euro for a piece of cable ? I know that is possible, but that is not going to happen and I think you would not do that either.
In short, they did not have the 5 mm2 fire retardant cable, but they did have the 6 mm2 fire retardant cable and as you can see on the pictures, the cable did not burn, the controller on the other hand did.

I know that Victron has the opinion that ONLY if you use the correct cable and correct shoe the connection is safe. Anything else can cause the connection to fail, but that is not their problem anymore.
If you take a look at my other post i just did a test with the wire. Only 3 to 5 mm of the wire actually goes into the connection block, the screw then holds down perhaps 3 mm of that. That does not strike me like a sound design. It may look perfectly fine to you, but reality has shown now (twice) that a dangerous situation can happen when screws come loose.
As for the torque screwdriver. I know that the company, which did the installation, have used it. I, as the end user, should not be required to retorque the screws on a regular basis. If that is a requirement it is a flawed design, it is as simple as that.

The simple solution to this problem is to change this connection block to something like it the last picture. Then you will never have a discussion again about wrong cable, not enough strands, wrong shoes, poor installation etc, which in my opinion is just selling fog to cover up a flawed design.

 

[Mambo42]

I'm with Luna on this. A ferrule is the best solution to this. You will likely have to test out the largest size that will fit the terminal and trim down the wire a bit to fit the ferrule. You want to use one without an insulator, like this.

https://www.grainger.com/product/79...9GwsKeQgOjzORfklrksaAnGXEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

We use these ferrules to build machines and specifically avoid using bare wire in terminals due to the issues you are seeing. Vibration and heat cycles allow the copper wire to flatten and redistribute the strands which can make the connection loose. It's likely not the screws loosening up, but the wires becoming displaced and moving. However, using blue Loctite on the threads is a reasonable precaution. I would take a picture when you tighten the block and when you recheck them I wouldn't be surprised if the screws are still in the same position.
If you are still concerned, add a thermocouple to the block and monitor the temperature over time to see if it rises due to increased resistance.
Lastly, ensure the wires are supported as close as is practically possible to the terminal block.

Like I stated before, I can walk into most shops in the Netherlands and find anything I need lying on the shelf in any shape form or color.
Countries in the Med however are a different story. Italy may be able to supply it, Spain and France as well, but you will need to know which company to go to and where.

Countries like Greece, Croatia, Montenegro, Turkey, Albania are a different matter. You are dealing with a lot of islands and by default you cannot get a lot on an island. Back in May I was still on the island of Kos, needed an aluminum washer for a fuel filter..........good luck, could not be supplied. After that I was on Kalymnos, Leros, Poros, Ithaca, Lefkada, Paxos and Corfu............no aluminum washers to be found. Now we are in Croatia and it is even worse, there are hardly any chandlers or hard ware stores at all. If you need something special you go to Bauhaus and hope they have it. However so far still no aluminum washer of the size I need and by now it is end of July.

Last year I was searching in all of Greece for the copper washers you need to fix the fuel return line in a Ford Lehman. Could not be found. In January I was in the Netherlands, walked into a hardware store and bought a lot of them for 30 cents a piece.

I know it is hard for people, who are not from this area, to realize that there are still parts of the world where the simplest things are not so simple to acquire. When my boat was rewired in the winter of 2022 / 2023 the electricians had exactly 2.5 months to get it done. There was no luxury to sit and wait for days, weeks or months for a simple item to be sourced. In these countries they have the habit to find a way around it, otherwise nothing gets done.
Working around a problem should not instantly mean that it will become a fire hazard because the exact correct cable and ferrule have not been used. However...............even the cables that have ferrules do come loose as well, so that ends the whole argument that a ferrule would have prevented this from happening.

 

[rslifkin]

Personally I've always ignored torque specs on terminals like this where they're capturing the wire and squishing it into place. I generally tighten them as much as I think I can without stripping or damaging the screw. That seems to do a good job of squishing the wire strands into place (assuming finely stranded wire) well enough that things don't move with heat cycles or vibration. Once anything starts to move, then it will rapidly become loose. Of course they should be periodically checked, but if they're actually loose when checked (especially beyond the first check) then something is wrong and it's time to figure out why they're loosening up.

 

[lwarden]

I don't think we can help with parts availability, you are just going to get optimal solutions from people with easy access to materials. To be perfectly blunt, we aren't able to assess the access to supplies, that's kind of on you I'm afraid. Is shipping of a supply of materials from a supplier like newwiremarine.com or even Amazon impossible to your location?

 

[ksanders]

Mambo - personally, I do not think sea state is consequential for screws loosening. General vessel vibration is, but not sea state induced oscillations, though perhaps the cable isn't well supported and it's motion contributes. Early in the thread someone suggested Loctite. I don't recall if VIctron uses star washers or the like, but something like that may help too. Personally, I've never noticed the issue but I can tell you I will check carefully when I return to Weebles in a few months.

I'm sorry, but I have to push-back on the esteemed electrical wonks who have said some variation of it's an install issue. Victron forces you into a corner where the only solution is a bastardized one such as cutting strands. The data sheet for the Victron 100/50MPPT states it's terminals accept up to 6AWG (16mm2) connectors. If you want to keep voltage drop down to 3% at 50A, that means the MPPT can be no further away from the solar array than 7-1/2 feet (4-1/2 meters - Blue Sea Wire Chart here). That's a short leash.

Peter

The problem Peter is that people are running too tight on their voltage drop "needs", causing a chain reaction of oversized wiring, then the wiring not fitting into the terminals, and now we have a boat fire situation on our hands.

Yes... I know about published voltage drop tables and graphs, but here is the reality from a guy that is a retired electrical professional, having installed thousands of pieces of electrical and automation equipment over a very long career.

20 Amps and below use #12 AWG wire
30 amps use #10 AWG wire
50 amps use #6 AWG wire

I do not know how wire is sold in europe, since I live in North America, but... the wire in the OP's photo is clearly oversized for the equipment. That means it is larger than the manufacturer recommends.

That oversized wire and the resulting poor connections are the root cause of this problem, and there is no way around that.

 

[luna]

If you have no confidence in the stock status shown on your vendor of choice's website, perhaps a telephone call, prior to the online order placement is in order. Get the name of the employee you spoke to or get an email confirming the stock status so you can speak with some clout if things go wrong.

I doubt that a larger retail outlet would allow their website to spew inaccuracies on an ongoing basis, all the while hoping to stay in business. Even in Greece.


How do you know that the company that did the installation used a torque measuring screwdriver when in your previous post (Post #32) you said that you were not there when the stuff was installed?

Understanding that the black wire's strands remain largely straight, although tarnished by the heat and the positive terminal looks unaffected by the heat, the notion that the twisted up strands shown on the removed red wire are from the removal process, (see post #41) seems self serving and somewhat absurd once you look at your original pictures.

If the over temperature damage to the existing devise is confined to the terminal strip, you may well be able (given some supplies and skill) to install a complete new set of terminals, the design of which would, of course be your choice. Let us know how that goes, if you pursue that remedy.

 

[Mambo42]

If you have no confidence in the stock status shown on your vendor of choice's website, perhaps a telephone call, prior to the online order placement is in order. Get the name of the employee you spoke to or get an email confirming the stock status so you can speak with some clout if things go wrong.

I doubt that a larger retail outlet would allow their website to spew inaccuracies on an ongoing basis, all the while hoping to stay in business. Even in Greece.


How do you know that the company that did the installation used a torque measuring screwdriver when in your previous post (Post #32) you said that you were not there when the stuff was installed?

Understanding that the black wire's strands remain largely straight, although tarnished by the heat and the positive terminal looks unaffected by the heat, the notion that the twisted up strands shown on the removed red wire are from the removal process, (see post #41) seems self serving and somewhat absurd once you look at your original pictures.

If the over temperature damage to the existing devise is confined to the terminal strip, you may well be able (given some supplies and skill) to install a complete new set of terminals, the design of which would, of course be your choice. Let us know how that goes, if you pursue that remedy.

View attachment 156879

As I stated before, just a few months ago I ordered 5 Victron VE direct to USB cables from a company in Greece. On their website it stated it was on stock, then I called them and they again stated it was on stock, they even e-mailed it was on stock. So I paid, gave the address and guess what.............it was not on stock.

Am sorry to say, but you look at companies in Greece with a Western state of mind and that is a big mistake. Companies in this part of the world have a completely different mind set. They basically don't care and as long as they have your money they can do what they want. If you think that writing a bad review is going to warn others, forget it. You will get a visit by the police and you will find yourself in court. In Greece it is illegal to 'defame' a company, even if it is completely clear that they messed up.
How do I know the electricians use a torque wrench / screw driver ? Simple, I know them for about 4 years now, they have always done all the electrical work on my boat. So I have seen them at work before, am normally always present, but I did not have the time to spend 2.5 months looking over their shoulder. However, it is a serious company, I can call them 24 hours per day if necessary, no matter where I am. So yes, I have discussed this issue with them as well.

But regardless of supply problems etc, fact is that this connection should not come loose under any circumstances. To claim that it can come loose because not enough strands were used, the cable was 1 mm2 too thick or that the wrong ferrule was used is just selling fog.
I showed the pictures where I cleaned 1 cm worth of cable and only 5 mm can go into the block and of the 5 mm only 3 mm is held by the screw. I tightened it up as much as I could and then I started to wiggle it. With some force it came loose, which means given enough time the cable will loosen itself
To me that is a flawed design, if to you it means a great design which requires use of the exact spec cables and shoes then I guess we differ in opinion on what is safe and what is not.

 

[twistedtree]

I sympathize with your frustration over Victron's Euro-centric thinking in their designs. There are similar challenges with many of their other products where 4/0 cables won't fit, and 4/0 cable logs interfere with adjacent lugs and other parts. The dimensions are just different from those used elsewhere in the world. That said, there are countless companies that are similarly US-centric in their designs....

As for the continuous loosening of the screw terminals, I think the issue must be related to one or more aspects of how you have had to do your installation. If materials availability doesn't allow for a proper installation, then I think it's reasonable to expect problems. I think all the possibilities have been addressed so far, but to summarize the possibilities seem to be:

- Wire strands that are too course.
- Wire that isn't stripped back far enough
- Not using ferrules (I think what you are calling shoes)
- And possibly not tightening the screws to proper torque specs.

I have a bunch of Victron MPPT chargers both at home and on the boat and haven't had any issues with the terminals coming loose. And if this were a common problem, we would surely be hearing about it.

 

[Mambo42]

I sympathize with your frustration over Victron's Euro-centric thinking in their designs. There are similar challenges with many of their other products where 4/0 cables won't fit, and 4/0 cable logs interfere with adjacent lugs and other parts. The dimensions are just different from those used elsewhere in the world. That said, there are countless companies that are similarly US-centric in their designs....

As for the continuous loosening of the screw terminals, I think the issue must be related to one or more aspects of how you have had to do your installation. If materials availability doesn't allow for a proper installation, then I think it's reasonable to expect problems. I think all the possibilities have been addressed so far, but to summarize the possibilities seem to be:

- Wire strands that are too course.
- Wire that isn't stripped back far enough
- Not using ferrules (I think what you are calling shoes)
- And possibly not tightening the screws to proper torque specs.

I have a bunch of Victron MPPT chargers both at home and on the boat and haven't had any issues with the terminals coming loose. And if this were a common problem, we would surely be hearing about it.

I did a test yesterday, published the pictures here as well. I cleaned 1 cm of cable (see picture), entered it in the block, but only 5 mm can go really inside the block. Of that 5 mm only 3 mm is grabbed by the screw. To me that is not a lot of cable that is being held by the screw.

Today I did another test, same cable, again 3 mm was held back. Then I applied force on the cable just pulled on it and after a little bit moving left to right I could pull it straight out. I could actually feel the screw loosening up.

Then I took a good look at the design of the connection block. The two ports that lead to the battery close off by coming up and to the side (see picture)
The ports that are for PV and load just come up, they have a flat surface, no ridges on the gripping surface. (see pictures).
Which means that you can just pull them out and that is what I was able to do as well, no matter how tight you squeeze the screw.
What I can do with a little bit of force can also be done over time with less force. To me that means the design is flawed, it should never come loose.

After that I measured the dimension of the holes in the connection block, I came to 2.8 mm. A 5 mm2 cable has a diameter of .................and that is the problem right there.
When you search for that diameter you will find that this cable is non standard in Europe. We have 2.5, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc So designing a block that holds a 5 mm2 cable as standard does not make a lot of sense in Europe, you are setting everyone up for problems.

Dikte kabel in mm2	Diameter kern
2.5mm²	1.78mm
4mm²	2.25mm
6mm²	2.76mm
10mm²	3.56mm
16mm²	4.51mm
25mm²	5.64mm
35mm²	6.67mm
50mm²	7.97mm
75mm²	9.77mm

And even here they don't mention a 5 mm2 cable

Wire Size - Area to Diameter Converter

Convert wire area from square mm to diameter mm.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

Based on the table above, and the fact that the dimension of the connection block is 2.8 mm you can also instantly see that a 6 mm2 cable with ferrule is not going to fit in that 2.8 mm hole, that is simply not going to work. That makes the decision to leave the ferrule out and go with the heavier cable instead of choosing a weaker cable with ferrule, all the more logical.

My questions therefore are:
- why can only 5 mm of any cable go in the connection block ? (if you could stick about 1 cm in the connection block the overall connection would be much stronger)

- why is only 3 mm of cable grabbed by the screw ? (a larger surface will ensure a stronger connection)

- why does the grabbing surface not have any ridges ? (if the surface has ridges pulling a cable out would become much more difficult).

- why does this connection block only work with a maximum of 5 mm2 cable, which is a non standard cable in many parts of the world ? The fact that this cable is very difficult to find becomes almost consequential, since suppliers are not going to keep something on stock for which there is hardly any demand.

- why is no more thought given about this design, to make it 100 % foolproof, especially when you are selling your equipment in countries where supplies are complicated or when you sell your equipment in DIY shops ? I had my installation done by an official installation company and still it went wrong.

Those questions are questions Victron should address in my opinion.

 

[rslifkin]

In particular it looks like the connections on the small MPPTs (smaller than the 100/30) may not be up to par. The bigger equipment seems to have better connections. My 100/30 MPPTs have 12 AWG on the solar side, 8 AWG on the battery side and I've had no issues with anything coming loose in 3+ years.

 

[luna]

As far as I am aware it is illegal to "defame" anybody or any company in any civil society. Greece is not unique in this respect.

If we can conclude that you did not install the red wire into the device, you only tightened the terminal screw as necessary over a few months, I would not have this "serious company", that has enjoyed a 4 year relationship with you, work on the boat again. They appear to suffer from oversized round peg into square hole syndrome.

In a similar vein, if you feel that Victron's equipment presents an unacceptable risk to you and/or your boat due to your conclusion that it suffers from a "flawed design" then stop using Victron's equipment and replace it all.

 

[Mambo42]

In a similar vein, if you feel that Victron's equipment presents an unacceptable risk to you and/or your boat due to your conclusion that it suffers from a "flawed design" then stop using Victron's equipment and replace it all.

And that is exactly what I am going to do. I will search for MPPT controllers that have a safe connection block, where cables cannot come loose. If I can simply pull the cable out with a bit of force then there is something wrong in the design. You may disagree with me, but a connection like this would not get a 'pass' in the aviation industry.

I also contacted a friend of mine who works in a technical inspection office in Croatia. I will send him the connection block and they will test it to find out how much force is required to get the cables out of this block. In addition they will look at the overall design of this connection block.
Like rslifkin stated 'In particular it looks like the connections on the small MPPTs (smaller than the 100/30) may not be up to par.'
I fully agree with that assessment.

I just spoke with the head office of Victron in the Netherlands, sent them all the pictures, findings, info etc. Will see what they will come up with. Their sales manager had the approach: 'not our problem', so will see what the head office thinks of that.

 

[Mambo42]

As far as I am aware it is illegal to "defame" anybody or any company in any civil society. Greece is not unique in that respect.

Not correct.
In most countries you can write a review on Google, tripadvisor, facebook etc stating your experience and if that was a negative experience the police is not going to knock on your door.
If you had a bad meal in Greece and you complain about that on e.g. tripadvisor you can find yourself in court. If a company did not ship a product to you, for which you have paid, and you state that on a review site you will find yourself in court in Greece. You are not allowed to write that.

If the same happens to me in the Netherlands or the US I am pretty sure I won't get sued by the company that did not deliver the ordered items. Or do you want to tell me that the company will sue you in the States ?

 

[Mambo42]

As an update:

Just got a reply from Victron that the dimensions of this block are aimed at the US market, not the European market. The fact that the correct cable cannot be sourced is something they simply accept.

 

[luna]

I would find it astonishing that in Greece, one of the birthplaces of the Rule of Law, that if your review was truthful and you can prove it, the courts would rule for the Plaintiff and not throw the case out.

To not dismiss the action simply means that the current Greek society has forgotten the philosophy and words of Aristotle and Plato, who once wrote something like: The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

Just for giggles, send me a link to the Greek Law that prohibits the posting of negative but truthful reviews of Private Corporations.

 

[SteveK]

They appear to suffer from oversized round peg into square hole syndrome.

I was thinking the same after seeing the square holes into which the conductor is inserted.
If a shoe/ferrule cannot be found, I suggest a single strand of solid wire attached to the stranded cable end. maybe this is a place to sodder the strands so they hold shape under the screw. No way can I see stranded wire held in place with or without proper torque..

 

[dannc]

....
I have a bunch of Victron MPPT chargers both at home and on the boat and haven't had any issues with the terminals coming loose. And if this were a common problem, we would surely be hearing about it.

Yeah, if this was a common problem I think we would have heard about it

I have been watching YouTube videos about Victron equipment for years and the comments are as informative, if not more, so than the videos often times. I have been watching quite a few Victron related videos over the last few months, many are for RV installations but there are Marine and land based installations as well. The videos are from Europe, Australia and the US. I have not seen or read comments of anyone having these connection problems.

This thread certainly has increased my concern about the idea of running US sized wire on a European built boat to enable use of either US or EU power with Victron equipment. One might just have to run wiring of the correct gauge for both EU and US power.

One of the videos I happened to have watched last night, which was a house installation, used ferules and conduit. I think the use of conduit to hold the wire and how the conduit was run, would help keep the wire connected to the Victron equipment that was being used. The conduit was supporting the wire since the conduit made a turn 18-24 inches underneath the MultiPlus. The bend in the conduit certainly supported the wire going into the MultiPlus.

 

[psneeld]

Maybe I missed it in another post(s), but the wire should be supported so that it CAN'T wiggle.