2nd start of fire in electrical equipment, what are your experiences ?

[Mambo42]

The connectors on the Victron equipment are suitable in size, and are actually oversized in many cased for 10%.

The connector in the MPPT 100/15 is not oversized.
15 A requires a 5 mm2 cable according to Victron and that is exactly the size of the connector. A bigger cable, the 6 mm2 is not going to fit with a ferrule.
The 100 /30 MPPT controller does have a larger connector, the 6 mm2 with ferrule will fit there, but according to Victron you should use a 10 mm2 cable and getting that into the connector with a ferrule is a bit of a nightmare. It is easy when the MPPT controller is hanging at eye level with no other equipment around it. But when the controller is mounted in an awkward space, with little room to maneuver it is not so easy anymore.
Also the 100 / 30 is not oversized.

 

[Mambo42]

Well, you unwittingly allowed them to proceed with the wrong cable. You were not told nor did you read the consequences of using the wrong cable. They covered their ass and you are left hanging.

Even worse............the company also did not know that a 6 mm2 plus ferrule would not fit in the connector. Nor were they told that a fire is imminent if they would use a wrong cable.
So who is responsible for their training and standard ? Me or Victron ?

 

[SteveK]

I am sure you are aware of litigations. You probably spoke on the phone and did not record the conversation. Somewhere on the invoice there may be a notation of why a wire was used.
I am not a lawyer, but have stayed at a Holiday inn express. You bought the equipement, you agreed to the wrong wire. While they are at fault they can claim they followed your instructions and had no reason to question them. Had they supplied the parts, then they would be liable.

I guess you need another mppt. Get it and a wire size adaption and finish the job yourself.

 

[Mambo42]

you elected to do what Victron told you not to do, and what Victron told you would happen as a consequence, happened.

Another thing I don’t understand is that you said you are in the Netherlands on a regular basis, perhaps even weekly. Couldn’t you have sourced the correct materials there and hand carried them to the boat? People do that all the time in other countries with similar disfunction.

Victron never told me what to use. I bought the equipment from their main distributor in the Netherlands and that was based on the shopping list the company in Greece gave me. It is like you go to the supermarket and your wife gives you a piece of paper and says: 'buy this'.

As I stated before, I did not read the manual of Victron on cables or equipment because why would and should I ? I tasked an official company to do the job, so I am not going to do the job for them, nor am I going to second guess them.

I am not in the Netherlands on a regular basis. At the time I lived in the Caribbean, but when the boat went to the yard to get rewired I went to the Netherlands with the shopping list, bought the equipment and drove back to Greece. There I dropped off the equipment and flew back to Curacao. That little trip by car saved me about 25.000 euro, so was well worth it.
I was in Curacao until the electricians told me they were finished, flew to Greece and we put the boat in the water, tested everything and moved the boat to a port where the other work could be finished.

 

[psneeld]

Even worse............the company also did not know that a 6 mm2 plus ferrule would not fit in the connector. Nor were they told that a fire is imminent if they would use a wrong cable.
So who is responsible for their training and standard ? Me or Victron ?

They are as far as training, not you OR Victron...

Standard? Which standard? Seems like they didn't ask you to buy to the Victron "standard" as that clearly states a different acceptable cable..

So if the company in Greece gave you a shopping list and you filled it, they installed, it didn't meet specs and melted...then they are pretty clearly at fault....as long as you met their shopping list (designed system) to the "T".

BUT IT IS NOT VICTRON's fault unless they passed faulty install info to the company you hired.

 

[Mambo42]

From what I read, not only was the wire availability hindered, Mambo wanted "FIRE RETARDANT" wire which is way beyond what most of us use...ANCOR is only "FIRE RESISTANT" (I think). Probably a much harder wire to come by that is sold for marine use.

Haven't changed from my post that described this as "tilting at windmills".

Reason I wanted fire retardant cables was because of a fire that had happened in the marina where the boat was going to be rewired. 4 boats went up in flames and the cause was faulty wiring in one of them.
We live on our boat 8 to 9 months a year and if you know a Defever 49 you know that there is basically one escape and that is up the stairs to the pilot house.
All our electrical equipment is in the lazarette and if a fire would break out we would simply not survive.

In addition we know Tristan Mortlock (SuperYachtCaptain on Youtube) very well and at dinner he explained us how lucky he had been during the fire onboard the boat he was on.
He told me that the fire had spread rapidly because the cable had actually started burning as well, so there were multiple fire sources. In less than 5 minutes the boat was engulfed in flames.

With that in mind I wanted safety and that meant fire retardant cables and yes, they are extremely expensive, but it is our life and that is worth quite a bit more than the few thousand euro I might save by going for a cheap cable.
Not a lot of people use fire retardant cables in Greece and then also a US standard cable ? That became too much and although I wanted fire safety, what I got was a fire hazard. Not happy with that.

 

[Mambo42]

BUT IT IS NOT VICTRONs fault unless they passed faulty install info to the company you hired.

The fact that the distributors, installation companies etc are not up to speed with what Victron demands is the responsibility of Victron. In the military we call that standards and everybody has to be up to standard. We even have a StanEval or standards evaluation.
If Victron claims (and as is proven) the whole thing will go up in flames when you deviate from their standards, they better make damn sure that all their suppliers, distributors and installers know this, so they don't deviate from it.

Reason why this company (and almost every company I spoke with in this area) does not know this is simple. They hardly do any installations since the equipment is extremely expensive in this area. You pay 2.5 to 3 times the price of the Netherlands, so it hardly gets sold and as a result installation companies forget what they have heard on a three day course. It is as simple as it can be, I can fully understand that.
Now, is it up to me to check if these installers know their job or is it the job of Victron to ensure the training remains up to standard ?

 

[psneeld]

Reason I wanted fire retardant cables was because of a fire that had happened in the marina where the boat was going to be rewired. 4 boats went up in flames and the cause was faulty wiring in one of them.
We live on our boat 8 to 9 months a year and if you know a Defever 49 you know that there is basically one escape and that is up the stairs to the pilot house.
All our electrical equipment is in the lazarette and if a fire would break out we would simply not survive.

In addition we know Tristan Mortlock (SuperYachtCaptain on Youtube) very well and at dinner he explained us how lucky he had been during the fire onboard the boat he was on.
He told me that the fire had spread rapidly because the cable had actually started burning as well, so there were multiple fire sources. In less than 5 minutes the boat was engulfed in flames.

With that in mind I wanted safety and that meant fire retardant cables and yes, they are extremely expensive, but it is our life and that is worth quite a bit more than the few thousand euro I might save by going for a cheap cable.
Not a lot of people use fire retardant cables in Greece and then also a US standard cable ? That became too much and although I wanted fire safety, what I got was a fire hazard. Not happy with that.

So you used a cable that almost cause a fire in your estimation.... hmmmm...no wonder you are blaming Victron's faulty manufacturing.

Thinking business and the military operate on the same principles is just so very wrong on so many levels.

I am out...this is the most ridiculous thread I have ever responded in....and considering some trolls that have passed through TF, that is saying a lot.

 

[Mambo42]

I am sure you are aware of litigations. You probably spoke on the phone and did not record the conversation. Somewhere on the invoice there may be a notation of why a wire was used.
I am not a lawyer, but have stayed at a Holiday inn express. You bought the equipement, you agreed to the wrong wire. While they are at fault they can claim they followed your instructions and had no reason to question them. Had they supplied the parts, then they would be liable.

I guess you need another mppt. Get it and a wire size adaption and finish the job yourself.

I only communicate these things via whatsapp or e-mail, so everything is in writing. Have been e-mailing last week with Victron head office and that is how I know they designed the equipment with the US market standards in mind.
They also wrote me (in an e-mail) that they know of fires, but they claimed it were only a few.

Now I have asked them the question of the ferrule I got advised where 1 distributor said this is the one to use and another official distributor swore it cannot be used. Wonder if I am going to get an answer from the head office.

 

[Mambo42]

So you used a cable that almost cause a fire in your estimation.... hmmmm...no wonder you are blaming Victron's faulty manufacturing.

Thinking business and the military operate on the same principles is just so very wrong on so many levels.

I am out...this is the most ridiculous thread I have ever responded in....and considering some trolls that have passed through TF, that is saying a lot.

I know the cable almost caused a fire since the screw, in the connection block, came loose. Every month several screws in these blocks loosen up. I found that out after the first fire scare. Also the cables with ferrules loosen up, so the claim by Victron that a ferrule will prevent the cables from coming loose, is incorrect.

As you can see in the pictures the cable did not burn, it did its job, unlike cables you can see in other Victron fires on Youtube.

The cable itself can transfer the amps, there is no doubt about it, after all it has been in use since end of March 2023. However when the screw in the connection block comes loose, that is when the fun begins and the whole thing goes up in flames.

 

[luna]

Yes Mambo42, we all get it that in your opinion this is entirely not your fault, Victron, the installer and/or the local material suppliers have all conspired to deceive you, resulting in 2 instances where your equipment has burnt up and other equipment is continuing to display the same (loose screws) fault pattern.

I would think that if you feel that you have been significantly damaged you could pursue an action against whoever you feel is responsible. Just don't be surprised when Victron or others starts a libel action against you in response.

What a smart person would do is what slowgoesit said in post #192, which was in effect, stop using it now and fix it right, before further use. Hundreds or thousands of these things operate daily without drama.

Rather than more, Victron knows but does not care about....... kind of stuff how about more, This is what I'm doing about it...... news?

I often wonder when reading this kind of dribble on public forums, if the insurance industry monitors these public venues in an effort to "Darwinize" their client base. Does anybody know ?
If so, (my gut says that they do) I don't think the thread title of "2nd start of fire in electrical equipment......." is something that would have come from the pen of the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[Mambo42]

What a smart person would do is what slowgoesit said in post #192, which was in effect, stop using it now and fix it right, before further use. Hundreds or thousands of these things operate daily without drama.

Rather than more, Victron knows but does not care about....... kind of stuff how about more, This is what I'm doing about it...... news?

That MPPT controller is no longer in use, it burned out, remember ?
So at the moment that solar panel is not delivering.
The other MPPT controllers do have an MPPT controller (100/30) with cable and furrule, but still come loose.

The burned out MPPT controller needs to be replaced and no, that is not going to be Victron anymore. Am currently going around Solar companies, see what they have to offer and find out if it fits in my system.

This was a reaction by Victron, to my question how it is possible that one distributor / dealer claims a certain ferrule can be used and another distributor / dealer claims it cannot:

Dealers werken niet voor Victron maar met , dus hebben net als een ieder recht op een eigen mening

Daarom zullen die ook verschillen interpretaties zijn wat betreft montage

Translated it means:

Dealers don't work for Victron, but with Vitron, so everyone has a right to his own opinion.
That is why there will be different interpretations with regard to installation

I.o.w. that sacred book of Victron is not so sacred after all.
Read it differently and what it really says is that Victron will never be responsible.

I wonder how that tune is going to change when the first deadly incident will occur.

 

[luna]

Yes, I remember the 15 A unit is toast, who could forget? Are you perhaps hourly, turning the terminal screws on the 30 A units to ensure they remain tight? Seems hardly worth the effort, when a fix is still required.

The Victron response does not surprise me as it is the truth, people are entitled to their own opinion. It should be no other way. That in itself does not mean that these people's opinion on any particular matter does or does not comply with the Victron book. Nor does this "opinion" statement from Victron invalidate the book. Victron published the book, just like you published the fact that Victron recommended the Flaming Isolator on page 34. You are both responsible for your words.

Move on, fix you problems, life will get better.

 

[CharlieO.]

I sympathize with your situation Mambo, but in my opinion Victron is not responsible if not installed to their specifications, if you were unable or the installers unable to install to Victron's specifications another product should have been used. Again, this is just my opinion. Wishing you well moving forward.

 

[CMS]

Even worse............the company also did not know that a 6 mm2 plus ferrule would not fit in the connector. Nor were they told that a fire is imminent if they would use a wrong cable.
So who is responsible for their training and standard ? Me or Victron ?

You are responsible.... Use the right wire, with correct stranding, and torque the terminals to Victron spec... What tool specifically did you use to set correct torque..?

 

[Insequent]

I.o.w. that sacred book of Victron is not so sacred after all.
Read it differently and what it really says is that Victron will never be responsible.

I wonder how that tune is going to change when the first deadly incident will occur.

I did an electronic search of "the sacred book of Victron". Ferrules are not mentioned in it at all.
So = dumb-ass idea by someone other than Victron. Get rid of the ferrules on the 4 x 100/30 controllers ASAP!

I have 4 x 100/50 controllers, and used either AWG 8 or AWG 6 in the terminal blocks as they can accept 16mm2 wire. The 100/30 can also accept 16mm2 wire. The screws have not come loose in 3 years so far, I just checked them. If the 6mm2 wire you used is getting warm to the touch (Mambo post #30) then you need to double up, and use two runs of it into each receptacle.

Use terminal blocks for your existing wire and run 6mm2 multi-strand from the terminal block to the controllers. Someone could put a couple meter of it in the mail for you. And buy a 5th 100/30 rather than use an inferior product that is different to the rest of the system. Buy the model that uses MC4 connectors if you don't like screws. Some have multiple MC4 connectors to allow for cables to be doubled up.

 

[Mambo42]

I did an electronic search of "the sacred book of Victron". Ferrules are not mentioned in it at all.
So = dumb-ass idea by someone other than Victron. Get rid of the ferrules on the 4 x 100/30 controllers ASAP!

Well, that is a fun one, I received an e-mail from Victron stating that loosening of the screw in the connection block and the burning of my MPPT controller was due to no ferrule being used.

I have 4 x 100/50 controllers, and used either AWG 8 or AWG 6 in the terminal blocks as they can accept 16mm2 wire. The 100/30 can also accept 16mm2 wire. The screws have not come loose in 3 years so far, I just checked them. If the 6mm2 wire you used is getting warm to the touch (Mambo post #30) then you need to double up, and use two runs of it into each receptacle.

The controller that burned out was a 100 / 15 controller and the max size cable it will accept is a 5 mm2 with ferrule or a 6 mm2 without ferrule.
The screws on all my MPPT controllers loosen up on a regular basis, that is why I tighten them up every month.

Use terminal blocks for your existing wire and run 6mm2 multi-strand from the terminal block to the controllers. Someone could put a couple meter of it in the mail for you. And buy a 5th 100/30 rather than use an inferior product that is different to the rest of the system. Buy the model that uses MC4 connectors if you don't like screws. Some have multiple MC4 connectors to allow for cables to be doubled up.

The only choice I see is smart or non smart controllers. which one has an MC4 connector ?

 

[Mambo42]

You are responsible.... Use the right wire, with correct stranding, and torque the terminals to Victron spec... What tool specifically did you use to set correct torque..?

I did not do the installation. I hired an official installation company, trained by Victron, to do the job. They did the installation during the winter and at that time I was home in the Caribbean.

 

[Mambo42]

I sympathize with your situation Mambo, but in my opinion Victron is not responsible if not installed to their specifications, if you were unable or the installers unable to install to Victron's specifications another product should have been used. Again, this is just my opinion. Wishing you well moving forward.

As stated I just received an e-mail from Victron where they stated: 'every installer / dealer can have his own opinion about installation'.
In other words, according to Victron there are more ways to skin a cat, the book of Victron is not sacred according to Victron. Only when it goes wrong Victron points to this book, but until that time all distributors and installers can do what they want.

 

[CMS]

I did not do the installation. I hired an official installation company, trained by Victron, to do the job. They did the installation during the winter and at that time I was home in the Caribbean.

So, you need to take this up with the installer, who did not do a professional job..

 

[Delta Riverat]

Well, there you go. The installers did not do a proper job.

 

[CMS]

As stated I just received an e-mail from Victron where they stated: 'every installer / dealer can have his own opinion about installation'.
In other words, according to Victron there are more ways to skin a cat, the book of Victron is not sacred according to Victron. Only when it goes wrong Victron points to this book, but until that time all distributors and installers can do what they want.

The reason Victron says this is because there are numerous standard throughout the world and not all are identical. That said the work your installer did is anything but professional.. I have used torque screw drivers for 18+ years, pre digital models, but even today many pro’s don’t even own one… Sadly, installers need to be carefully selected..

 

[Delta Riverat]

But this is Greece and since you can't even get proper materials in the first place...

 

[Insequent]

The only choice I see is smart or non smart controllers. which one has an MC4 connector ?

Here you go. Data sheet attached. These models have 2 pairs of MC4's, while other models have 3 pairs of them. You need multiple 6mm2 wire pairs if you have long cable runs. You likely have voltage drop in your current installation.

 

[Insequent]

And use PV1-F solar cable, something like this. It is rated to 90°C, which is more than enough now you have decent ER ventilation. You will note it has more than 50 fine strands

 

[Insequent]

As I noted in post #226, if your wires are warm to the touch then you need to address that.

If the wires are warming up each day and cooling down each night then the ferrules will be doing the same. Metals expand and contract with heat & cooling. So the warm wires are leading to the screws loosening - due to the daily expansion/contraction of the ferrules. I would eliminate them from your installation.

To mitigate the wires getting warm you can increase the voltage (panels in series when there is a pair of them), or double up the wire cables. IMO you need to double up on the wire cables at the very least, but to the extent it is possible I would do both. You can probably do a test of the effectiveness of this with a temporary reconfiguration.

 

[twistedtree]

I did not do the installation. I hired an official installation company, trained by Victron, to do the job. They did the installation during the winter and at that time I was home in the Caribbean.

But you said you tighten the terminals every month. How are you setting the torque?

 

[Mambo42]

Here you go. Data sheet attached. These models have 2 pairs of MC4's, while other models have 3 pairs of them. You need multiple 6mm2 wire pairs if you have long cable runs. You likely have voltage drop in your current installation.

Perhaps it is me, but I don't see the MC4 connectors. The green connection block is exactly what I have and that is the one that is giving me problems. I do have MC4 connectors near the panels, the panels come with them.

 

[Mambo42]

But you said you tighten the terminals every month. How are you setting the torque?

They were set by the installer with a torque wrench, but came loose, so now I tighten them up 'tight' when they come loose. I probably go well over the torque, but if I don't they will come loose immediately.

 

[Mambo42]

As I noted in post #226, if your wires are warm to the touch then you need to address that.

If the wires are warming up each day and cooling down each night then the ferrules will be doing the same. Metals expand and contract with heat & cooling. So the warm wires are leading to the screws loosening - due to the daily expansion/contraction of the ferrules. I would eliminate them from your installation.

To mitigate the wires getting warm you can increase the voltage (panels in series when there is a pair of them), or double up the wire cables. IMO you need to double up on the wire cables at the very least, but to the extent it is possible I would do both. You can probably do a test of the effectiveness of this with a temporary reconfiguration.

The cables are not hot, they are just slightly warmer than outside air temp. To me pretty normal since also a charging cable of a telephone charger will become warmer when charging. After all, each cable has resistance, which means it heats up.
I was never worried about the temperatures of the cables, if they would be boiling hot I would become worried.
So what temperature is allowed ?