Alternator advice needed

[TowLou]

Looking at the pic can just remove it from the switch and go direct to your isolator. Now being fused is another question off the alternator to your isolator.

 

[TowLou]

Not only is it unnecessary but if used when running it can destroy the alternator. I dont think there us any need if not running so IMO it is a problem waiting to happen?

X2 correct. Real fast way to blow diods kinda like disconnecting a battery when its running. Then your battery banks are not so happy and keep draining.

 

[LeoKa]

I took the switch off. The reason it was there to disconnect the batteries from everything, if needed. It was not on the alternator cable, but the cranking batteries cable. The wire was long enough to connect it directly to the isolator.

 

[Helmsman]

I took the switch off. The reason it was there to disconnect the batteries from everything, if needed. It was not on the alternator cable, but the cranking batteries cable. The wire was long enough to connect it directly to the isolator.

I may have the jumper wire I had on my isolator that bridged one of the occupied output posts to the unoccupied one. I will look tomorrow. If I still have it, you are welcome to it.

 

[LeoKa]

Here is a manual I found online. Look at page 9 for the wiring diagram.

https://newcontent.westmarine.com/documents/pdfs/OwnersManuals/ELECTRICAL/353134-36044.pdf

Look at page 5 under “General”, the first bullet:

“Provide the required connection from the key switch and the negative DC connection (manufacturers generally use the color purple as the designation for a “key on” lead)”

If you call Promariner, ask about the adv reg post. You may need that if you have or add an external regulator.

Thanks. The manual says that the starting battery connection does not need to be fused, as long the wire is 40” or less. This is my case.
I do have breakers on front of the dcdc chargers, as it is required. These are two 30A Victron chargers, each has a BlueSea 40A breaker. This connection is on the isolator on the second bank terminal. The 3rd connector is not in use.
The ignition is wired in. The isolator only works when the ignition is on.

 

[LeoKa]

Not only is it unnecessary but if used when running it can destroy the alternator. I dont think there us any need if not running so IMO it is a problem waiting to happen?

The ProMarine manual shows a switch for each battery bank after the isolator terminals.
The alternator connection did not have a switch. It is just a direct wire from the alternator to the isolator terminal.

 

[Bacchus]

The ProMarine manual shows a switch for each battery bank after the isolator terminals.
The alternator connection did not have a switch. It is just a direct wire from the alternator to the isolator terminal.

My understanding is...If both get switched off when running you can destroy an alternator. OK if not running.
You might consider a bold warning sign at each SW?

 

[LeoKa]

My understanding is...If both get switched off when running you can destroy an alternator. OK if not running.
You might consider a bold warning sign at each SW?

Only the crank battery leg had a switch. Nothing on the alternator wire.

 

[Bacchus]

Only the crank battery leg had a switch. Nothing on the alternator wire.

OK. . Sorry I misunderstood.
If ProM recommends both they should include a warning.

 

[LeoKa]

OK. . Sorry I misunderstood.
If ProM recommends both they should include a warning.

Not both, just between the battery banks and the isolator terminals.
I agree with you that I do not see much purpose of this switch to the bank, since I would never troubleshoot the bank connection, while the engine is running. Regardless, it is on the wire schema, so I have included it. Now the switch off, so connection problem I had should not occur again, to the crank batteries.
The other leg to the dcdc chargers are protected by breakers, as I have mentioned already.

 

[LeoKa]

No luck.
I went for a short run with the boat and the alternator does not charge. Only the generator.
I have measured the voltage on the alternator terminals. It showed only 2.6 volts. The isolator did not have the green light active, which is on when the alternator is providing the charge.
So it was not the switch and it was not the regulator. It must be the alternator which is malfunctioning. I might need to buy a new one.

 

[Helmsman]

No luck.
I went for a short run with the boat and the alternator does not charge. Only the generator.
I have measured the voltage on the alternator terminals. It showed only 2.6 volts. The isolator did not have the green light active, which is on when the alternator is providing the charge.
So it was not the switch and it was not the regulator. It must be the alternator which is malfunctioning. I might need to buy a new one.

Before you do that, I would connect the ignition wire as the Promariner folks suggest and add the jumper. That fixed my charging issues.

 

[LeoKa]

Before you do that, I would connect the ignition wire as the Promariner folks suggest and add the jumper. That fixed my charging issues.

The ignition wire is connected. The isolator works only when the ignition is on.

I have few older battery cables, which are very short. I’ll connect the two outputs and see what happens.

 

[LeoKa]

Before you do that, I would connect the ignition wire as the Promariner folks suggest and add the jumper. That fixed my charging issues.

I still don’t understand the jumper solution. I could not find any reference on the thread quoted before.
How come this is not included in the ProMariner manual and setup?

 

[Helmsman]

I still don’t understand the jumper solution. I could not find any reference on the thread quoted before.
How come this is not included in the ProMariner manual and setup?

I wouldn’t be able to answer why it isn’t in the manual. That would be a question for ProMariner.

On the picture you showed earlier, you have one output on the Promariner 1-3 that is open. The issue that this creates, according to ProMariner when I called them about the same situation with mine, was that the isolator will “hunt” for a connection for that output. According to Promariner support, that creates an issue that can interfere with charging. Their support is good. Give them a call. The connector you had on the battery switch above the Promariner could be used as a jumper,

The other issue that you are dealing with is that the ignition wire is disconnected (as well as the B- wire that accompanies it). That is documented in the manual as a requirement.

 

[Helmsman]

The ignition wire is connected. The isolator works only when the ignition is on.

I have few older battery cables, which are very short. I’ll connect the two outputs and see what happens.

If you look at the picture of the isolator you posted above, in the bottom left hand corner you will see the post for the ignition wire and the b- post supporting it. There isn’t a wire on either one of them. If you have already connected them into the ignition circuit since you took that picture, then that part of the problem is solved. If not, then I don’t see how it is connected to the ignition circuit.

 

[LeoKa]

I have posted two photos. The first was taken during the installation and it does not have the ignition wire connected yet. The second photo shows the ignition wire and ground wire connected. That is the present setup.

If I understand you correctly, the jumper cable eliminates the isolator’s hunting on the unoccupied terminal. Ok. How does this solution cures the alternator’s output? As of now, the alternator is only produces 2.6 volts, at any rpm. The troubleshooting guide for the alternator says that if the output voltage of 14.7 volts is not present, the alternator needs to be repaired or replaced. Of course this is without an isolator and just directly connected to the starting batteries. Maybe I should test this out and just connect the alternator to the batteries directly?

 

[Helmsman]

I have posted two photos. The first was taken during the installation and it does not have the ignition wire connected yet. The second photo shows the ignition wire and ground wire connected. That is the present setup.

If I understand you correctly, the jumper cable eliminates the isolator’s hunting on the unoccupied terminal. Ok. How does this solution cures the alternator’s output? As of now, the alternator is only produces 2.6 volts, at any rpm. The troubleshooting guide for the alternator says that if the output voltage of 14.7 volts is not present, the alternator needs to be repaired or replaced. Of course this is without an isolator and just directly connected to the starting batteries. Maybe I should test this out and just connect the alternator to the batteries directly?

Ok. I didn’t see the second photo. The alternator relies on a complete circuit from the alternator through the isolator, and on to the batteries and then to the negative bus bar. If that is circuit is interrupted, has a high resistance, or the FET’s in the isolator are defective, then the voltage level could be different than it should be. But, you were getting an ok output, before you took it out for a spin. That was the same type of situation I was having.

The two fixes I suggested (a filter supplied by Promariner and the jumper) were required by Promariner. I completed those two fixes. The isolator worked for a few months, and then went out. They replaced that isolator with a new isolator under warranty, after having me perform tests on the charging circuit with them on the phone. That one lasted an additional six months. When it quit working, I replaced with a diode isolator. No more problems after that.

Connecting the alternator directly to a battery would be a way to see whether the issue is the isolator or the alternator. If it is the isolator, then connect a jumper and call Promariner for a filter.

Look at the filter mentioned in the link in post 51. That is the filter they had me put on. They sent me one. I put it on when I corrected the jumper issue. You may need to do the same.

I got the impression that the Promariner isolators do have some issues. They operate inconsistently in some cases.

 

[Helmsman]

Maybe it has been suggested, but if you need to replace the isolator, I would probably just get ACR to put between the banks, or a DC to DC if you have different battery chemistries, since it looks like you have just two banks charging.

 

[Bacchus]

As of now, the alternator is only produces 2.6 volts, at any rpm. The troubleshooting guide for the alternator says that if the output voltage of 14.7 volts is not present, the alternator needs to be repaired or replaced.
Of course this is without an isolator and just directly connected to the starting batteries. Maybe I should test this out and just connect the alternator to the batteries directly?

That should be relatively easy and a way to confirm whether the alt is working and capable of the expected output.

 

[LeoKa]

Now I am even more confused about this isolator.
Today I did the jumper connection as it was suggested. Here is how it went down.

1.
Started main engine, no generator, no change compared to yesterday. The blue led lids up and I can measure 14.13 volts everywhere. On the alternator, on the isolator terminals. No other led is on. A green one should come on, when the alternator is sending current.
2.
Installed jumper cable between bank 2 and 3. Started main engine. Same thing. Only one blue led for the starting battery charge and nothing else.
3.
Removed the alternator’s cable from the isolator and connected directly to the cranking batteries. Start main engine, no generator. Same thing. Blue led on, voltage at the alternator terminal is 14.14 volts. No other led is active.
4.
Put back the alternator wire onto the isolator. Jumper wire is still on. Started the main engine. Same everything. Started generator, which would charge the cranking batteries through a Magnum inverter/charger, if needed. No change. Only blue led is on on the isolator. Magnum monitor display shows Float charge. Batteries are full. Isolator still shows charge going to the batteries by having the blue led on.

The Pilothouse volt meter is showing a little above 12 volts, after the main engine is started.

Maybe it is time for a different battery charge management device? It seems that the alternator is working now. That was not the case yesterday. Or, I am just losing my mind already.

 

[LeoKa]

Maybe it has been suggested, but if you need to replace the isolator, I would probably just get ACR to put between the banks, or a DC to DC if you have different battery chemistries, since it looks like you have just two banks charging.

The second bank connection on the isolator is going to a dcdc setup. Two 30A Victron controllers charging my lithium house bank. Once the isolator decides to send current to this bank, the dcdc controllers are doing their job and charging the lithiums just fine. I can see that on my phone.
He original idea with the isolator was to charge the starting batteries first, and fill up the lithiums afterwards, while underway.

What would an ACR do for me?

 

[Helmsman]

The second bank connection on the isolator is going to a dcdc setup. Two 30A Victron controllers charging my lithium house bank. Once the isolator decides to send current to this bank, the dcdc controllers are doing their job and charging the lithiums just fine. I can see that on my phone.
He original idea with the isolator was to charge the starting batteries first, and fill up the lithiums afterwards, while underway.

What would an ACR do for me?

If you have a Dc to DC, that is better than ACR because it can adjust the charge being sent to the downstream bank.

 

[Helmsman]

Now I am even more confused about this isolator.
Today I did the jumper connection as it was suggested. Here is how it went down.

1.
Started main engine, no generator, no change compared to yesterday. The blue led lids up and I can measure 14.13 volts everywhere. On the alternator, on the isolator terminals. No other led is on. A green one should come on, when the alternator is sending current.
2.
Installed jumper cable between bank 2 and 3. Started main engine. Same thing. Only one blue led for the starting battery charge and nothing else.
3.
Removed the alternator’s cable from the isolator and connected directly to the cranking batteries. Start main engine, no generator. Same thing. Blue led on, voltage at the alternator terminal is 14.14 volts. No other led is active.
4.
Put back the alternator wire onto the isolator. Jumper wire is still on. Started the main engine. Same everything. Started generator, which would charge the cranking batteries through a Magnum inverter/charger, if needed. No change. Only blue led is on on the isolator. Magnum monitor display shows Float charge. Batteries are full. Isolator still shows charge going to the batteries by having the blue led on.

The Pilothouse volt meter is showing a little above 12 volts, after the main engine is started.

Maybe it is time for a different battery charge management device? It seems that the alternator is working now. That was not the case yesterday. Or, I am just losing my mind already.View attachment 130807

Are you measuring the voltage at the battery? Was the voltage at the battery banks connected to the isolator 14.14 without the generator or shore power on? If so, you are receiving a charge from the alternator. Was it also providing a charge in excess of 14 when you direct connect to a battery? If so, the alternator is charging.

If you lose the charge again while underway, then re-read the Rinker link I posted. You will see the same type issues you have been having.

The Pilot house voltmeter may not be giving you a good reading.

 

[Slowmo]

For what it is worth I have found my dash voltmeters aren't accurate reflections of the actual voltages, at either the lower or upper stations. The point being is don't take the dash gauge literally, better to check at the source.

 

[LeoKa]

Shorepower was never on during this test. Only the generator was added in the last settings. The first three measurement was done while the main engine was running and tiring the alternator. The voltage was the same.
I believe the alternator was charging during this test. The isolator did not do a thing, it seems.

 

[LeoKa]

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

I was thinking about getting one of these. What do you think?
My dctodc chargers are Victron, too.

 

[Helmsman]

Shorepower was never on during this test. Only the generator was added in the last settings. The first three measurement was done while the main engine was running and tiring the alternator. The voltage was the same.
I believe the alternator was charging during this test. The isolator did not do a thing, it seems.

One thing that I am not clear on is whether you ever measured the voltage arriving from the isolator AT the two battery banks. Do not turn the generator on for this.

Start the engine.

Check the voltage at the alternator. Record it.

Check the voltage at the isolator posts for each post that leads to the two banks. Record it.

Check the voltage at the two battery banks. Record it.

They should all be the same, or there should be a slight lowering as you move through the system. If the isolator hasn’t begun to charge the second bank you won’t see voltage there. Wait a bit until the isolator begins to charge off of the second post. Then re-check it.

Go to the pilot house and record the voltage at the gauge.

Take the boat out, if you can with someone else piloting.

Check the voltage at the alternator. Record it.

Check the voltage at the isolator. Record it.

Check the voltage at the battery bank. Record it.

Record the voltage reported on the Pilot house gauge.

The generator is a different charging system altogether and would not flow through the isolator, or of course, the alternator. So, I would not introduce that variable into your analysis of the three pieces of the alternator charging system.

 

[Helmsman]

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/argo-fet-battery-isolators

I was thinking about getting one of these. What do you think?
My dctodc chargers are Victron, too.

They are Victron’s answer to the Promariner FET isolator. I don’t know anything about them. If you were to get one, you would want the two battery output version. They sell them in 100 amp and 200 amp versions. Make sure that you get the one that has more amperage than your alternator.

 

[Helmsman]

You had stated earlier that you were getting 2 something volts out of your alternator after taking your boat out. After you complete the tests I posted earlier, if you still have the same result, then I would suspect your isolator. Specifically, I would suspect the ignition connection.

The Promariner isolator uses that connection to tell your alternator that there is a battery present to charge. Promariner has struggled with that on their isolators, so they have developed a filter to place on the isolator. The newer ones come with the filter already installed. The tell tale for it was erratic charging, and in some cases a rattling sound that sounds like a ratchet wrench going backwards.

Their explanation is that the current coming through the ignition wire has “interference” on it. One of the techs said that there may be a small amount of AC current on the wire. I don’t know that that statement is truly the case.

I placed the filter on my isolator, and it worked, for a while, anyway.

In your case, you are not getting the green light anymore. That green light is the signal that the isolator has power coming from the ignition. You still have charging, but when you took it out, you had very low voltage.

I suspect the isolator. The best way to be sure that the isolator is the issue, would be to direct connect one battery bank to the alternator, and then travel with it for a day or two. If you experience zero issues, then you could be pretty sure that the isolator is probably the issue. I personally would not buy another Promariner isolator. Their support is good, but the product has (or had) a defect in it. One expert on these isolators told me that the failure rate is around 10% for one of the versions.

The Victron is one alternative. There are others. Which would be best, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. Other posters can chime in on what they use, and whether their isolator works well.