Boat issues found after the survey and deal closed

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ManoBoat

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Oct 8, 2021
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Seeing a number of threads with folks talking about problems they are trying to solve that were not found during a survey, some asking about recourse on the surveyor.

Many folks are not listing what was not found so would like to ask for members to help us prospective buyers know what was missed to help us achieve a better end.

What was missed by your or the surveyor's inspection? What did you do to fix the issue?
 
Severe hydrolysis and blistering of the bottom. Ground the entire bottom paint/gel coat off..... repaired 6 foot by 6 foot area of severe hydrolysis/delamination, rebuilt with alternating layers of woven fabric and cloth, Interprotect 2000 about 6 coats and bottom painted.

I specifically told the surveyor that I didn't care about cosmetics or little stuff....just find showstoppers. He missed a big one.

Fortunately it didn't cost a lot because I did it myself. I would see how others would have been out a lot of money.
 
First off, I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt and do your own research.
Most surveyors have disclaimers in their contracts/paperwork that could make it difficult to "hold them accountable", if they are not willing to admit their error(s). Also this would depend on the exact local/state(provincial)/national laws that are applicable in your jurisdiction. However, going to court is usually not a win in any shape of the word, and could end up throwing good money after bad......but could be a consideration (depending on circumstances).
If the issues that were missed are egregious (expensive and should be obvious to a trained surveyor), possibly contacting the accrediting body that this surveyor belongs to would be at least worth a phone call or email, and if "bad enough" contacting a marine lawyer for advice would be in order??
Unfortunately this could end up being a case of "buyer beware" both for the choosing of the surveyor as well as choosing the boat.
Sorry to hear about your situation!! Good luck.
 
  • Fuel lines when disturbed cracked and failed. On CAT 3208 NA the engine mounted fuel filter has to be moved to pull the expansion tanks. Moving the filters the lines were brittle and broke open.
  • Severe bonding system failure misidentified as over zinced.
  • Port strut slightly bend, not obvious to the eye, binding the shaft. Discovered when replacing PSS seals. Prop could not be turned by hand.
  • Numerous leaks in the hydraulic steering system. Cross threaded fittings. Final solution was 100% replacement of the lines, most of the fittings.
  • Negative (-) side of the DC system was a complete mess. Rebuilt.
A combination of expensive findings that should have been found by the hull and condition or the mechanical surveyor. That experience taught me that a survey, even by the best, is not worth as much as going over the boat myself with a fine toothed comb.

Next boat. I did better this time. Told the seller I needed a lot of time on the boat, alone, going over everything.
  • The starboard alternator was pronounced dead. I found out after purchase it was an inline fuse, 60 AMP for a 90 AMP alternator labeled "Watermaker"
  • 1,2,Both switch incorrectly wired. Truly bizarre wiring that resulted in dead start batts and no charge going into the house bank from the engines. That problem was partly identified during survey. Seller replaced the start batts. I straightened out the mess. Clearing these two items gave me a system that while not ideal at least works.
  • DC system a complete pile of spaghetti. With dozens of abandoned wires, switches that don't do anything, old failing light fixtures being used as junction boxes. The only comment by the surveyor was the wired need to be supported every 18"

The truth is a surveyor will be on your boat for 4 to 6 hours. It is not possible to find all faults in that little time especially on an older boat.
 
firehoser75 said:
Unfortunately this could end up being a case of "buyer beware" both for the choosing of the surveyor as well as choosing the boat.
Click to expand...
Yeah, very much so.

My only unexpected experience: I had a cascading set of instrumentation failures on the maiden voyage of one of my boats. Root cause was a bad connection on the heavy ground cable from the panel. The boat had a 1500w inverter which the previous owner had used for the fridge only. The only connection to ground was through the engine wiring harness, and when I plugged a coffee maker in the harness started melting down. It wasn't a cheap fix, or even an easy diagnosis at first.

It never occurred to me to blame myself (except for ignoring the initial symptoms), the surveyor or even the PO. Sometimes stuff happens, and often a change in use patterns can uncover new gremlins.

Lots of this is contextual. There are surveyors who will supervise new builds to provide assurances to the owner. But they're not too interested in 30 year old 100k boats.

If you are in the latter category my advice to most prospective buyers is to lower your expectations and budget some money for post-purchase surprises.
 
When I am buying a boat I always go spend at least a day, if it is a larger boat, and poke around on the boat. Most times the surveyor has not found anything of significance that I didn’t already find. But insurance and the banks require a survey so I have them done. So if I miss an item and the surveyor misses I figure that the blame is partly mine so I say ok, then fix it. Most of the surveyors disclaimers say something like they will only refund the cost of the survey, so that isn’t worth messing with.
 
Don't expect perfection. I always find many things the surveyors miss, in my boats and others. Especially wood boats, engine rooms, and electrical.
But the surveyor doesn't really have the time. He verifies everything works and the obvious problems are covered. Most learned their trade out of a book, not experience. And wood boats require a very experienced wood boat surveyor. I've found obvious termites several places in a wood boat that passed.
Taking a surveyor to court won't gain anything.
Today the purpose of a surveyor is to placate banks and insurance companies with employees that know even less than the surveyor.
 
Between the survey and my own inspection, nothing else has been found since purchase two years ago. As others, I cannot say the survey had anything that caught me by surprise. I would recommend boat and mechaical surveyors.
 
I can do a pretty good inspection on a boat. I actually had 2 different surveyors ask me why I wasn’t a surveyor but boating is my passion and hobby so I never wanted to make it a business.
 
One can often find things wrong after a surveyor.

Much like buying a brand new boat, defects and issues can be out of sight and impossible to detect without days of use or taking things apart.

It would be the rare owner that will permit the surveyor to take core samples from many parts of the boat (even if he repairs them or pays to). Also taking things apart or being able to get into well sealed blind compartment areas are not often common things done.

An example of what a surveyor might do but many don't.... would be take the faceplate off a 110V wall outlet. Not doing it and just checking it with a tester just often shows it works. Yes.... a low voltage might show a high resistance connection, or using a thermal imager may show heat if left on long enough. However, it doesn't show already discolored wires, or poor connections/connectors, possibly undersized/unapproved wires, etc that all could lead to issues the day/week after the survey.

So I have a suspicion that many surveyors follow a simple rule of thumb. Start with the year/make/model and that gives them a head start on known problem areas. Then move on to general maintenance....high to low....how will that affect long term problems arising? Then it's methodically checking for operation of on/off items and things that need to move. If any warning signs pop up during the inspection it's hit or miss if they just note it or dig deep enough to say whether it's cosmetic, the start of a problem or maybe a showstopper for the average purchaser.

A survey is something like an annual health check. The doc looks for all the normal indicators of a healthy person...but there are many tests not done unless there is a reason to.... like a symptom or complaint If a lot of obvious indicators make you look healthy and questions and basic tests say you are probably healthy....most of the time you get a lollypop and off ya go.

Don't worry, I often don't discuss other professions, but one can apply this to any profession that requires diagnostics. They all are limited in some ways to guarantee any diagnosis to be 100%.
 
Boats are complicated, more so today as an increasing number of vessels are either designed or modified to be floating electronic toys. Few surveyors have the skills to assess these systems so the weasel words start flowing.

I’ve two good friends who own Nordhavns with electronics and electrical systems that were seriously modified by previous owners. No surveyor comments were specific for these systems instead speaking to compliance to ABYC in endless droning paragraphs specific for CYA and insurance issues.

In one case the owner sold the problematic boat and bought a new Nordhavn. In the other, a major redo of the boat’s previous electronics was required as patch jobs had corrupted the basic usability of the boat’s onboard systems.

Then comes the over reliance of a surveyor’s findings, which as noted in previous poster’s comments is nothing more than a CYA by the surveyor. The happiest boaters I know in this regard are smart experienced mariners who have lots of experience from which to make rational purchase decisions.

Whether TF or other boating websites the “get a surveyor” advice all too often becomes a mantra that pushes necessary experience and common sense aside. Then when the surveyor’s findings prove lacking inexperienced new owners are shocked.

So, excuse my long winded answer, but the OP’s question raises the common specter of who advises and how findings are used regarding new boat purchases. A new inexperienced owner is in for a surprise or two and all too often wondering who to blame.
 
All great feedback and a number of solid recommendations. Please keep the info coming, many different scenarios can happen for pre-boat inspecting and seeing things that a surveyor or even very seasoned boater found after the sale makes for a nice list to have handy for future purchase.

Thank you
 
i just sell 1 my boat,today 16.00 I receive money.
contract I made in 4 page. on english and croatian
signed .1 of
Both parties agreed as follows: The Buyer is buying a Ship owned by the Seller. The buyer accepts the purchase of the ship under the terms and conditions of this contract. The ship is sold in "seen-purchased" condition.
i just make tabular statement for tomorrow.

you don't buy new boat with warranty,next time better look around.
 
The most important thing that happened to me was that I had two electricians stating the wiring onboard was absolutely perfect. However, when I had to change the engines I found out the wiring was absolutely dangerous. Heavy cables were falling apart, just crumbling, but it had been the insulating material that had kept it all together.
So in the end had to change all the wiring, pretty expensive operation, but am glad I did it, could have ended in a fire.
 
Mambo42 said:
The most important thing that happened to me was that I had two electricians stating the wiring onboard was absolutely perfect. However, when I had to change the engines I found out the wiring was absolutely dangerous. Heavy cables were falling apart, just crumbling, but it had been the insulating material that had kept it all together.
So in the end had to change all the wiring, pretty expensive operation, but am glad I did it, could have ended in a fire.
Click to expand...
Most power cables have a design life of between 20 to 30 years. If the cables are not fully loaded, they are expected to last beyond their design life. newer Power cables are available with special high-grade XLPE or EPR insulation with design lifetimes of up to 50 years.tined cable In Europe the expected lifespan is 30-50 years. problem is cable isolation
how old is your boat
 
My boat is now 45 years old and the broker told me the main power cables had been exchanged 5 years before. They looked indeed to be ok and they had wrapped them together with some insulating material to create a string of cables which were perfectly tied down to the bulkheads and ceiling. However when I had to remove the engines I had to loosen everything up and that is when the cables started to crumble.
My guess is that these cables dried out due to the extremely high temperatures in the ER when underway. It used to get up to 70 degrees Celsius in the ER. Now I have installed large industrial ventilators and as a result it does not get above 35 degrees Celsius in the ER during summer time, which will keep the cables in a better condition.
All those heavy power cables have been replaced by double insulated cables made by DG Rubber and all the thinner cables have been checked and are still ok. I will have to replace them at one time, but according to the electricians they are in perfect condition at this time.
If I would have known this at the time when they did the survey in Greece I would have offered at least 30.000 euro less for the boat (and that still would not cover the total cost of replacing the wiring).
 
My 2,c worth. Prepare the boat for the survey.
The surveyor's contract will contain some clause about unobstructed access. Make sure all access panels have been identified and are open, storage spaces emptied etc. They can't inspect it if they can't get to it.
1 instance for me was a wall panel access hidden in the rear of a closet filled with clothing. Behind the panel was the back of the shore power connection. Spliced wiring was hanging unsupported from the wire nuts used to make the bootleg connection. Found it 2 years after survey when it shorted.
 
My surveyor found that the oil exchanger powered up and was operational. What he missed was that the boat had no oil exchanger ...
 
Turtle Blues said:
My 2,c worth. Prepare the boat for the survey.
The surveyor's contract will contain some clause about unobstructed access. Make sure all access panels have been identified and are open, storage spaces emptied etc. They can't inspect it if they can't get to it.
1 instance for me was a wall panel access hidden in the rear of a closet filled with clothing. Behind the panel was the back of the shore power connection. Spliced wiring was hanging unsupported from the wire nuts used to make the bootleg connection. Found it 2 years after survey when it shorted.
Click to expand...
Wow, sounds like the short just created a lack of shore power but thinking that could have been way worse. What year/model of boat?
Thanks for sharing
 
Survey missed bad shaft bearings - 5 out of 6 were bad. He spotted an issue with one cutlass bearing. All of this was a major repair, as we had to remove the generator to get at it. Electrical was a mess. Plumbing had a broken line behind one muffler and the other muffler was cracked and needed replacing. If there was a way to half ass a fix the PO did it.

I would hire a separate electrical and mechanical surveyor, besides a more general survey. Then have a good independent mechanic available at the haul out to give you some idea of the costs of repairing or updating issues.

Jack
 
I’ve hired surveys both good and bad, there’s often no way of knowing a surveyor’s skill/honesty level prior to hiring, but their services are a requirement in order to be insured, so we all must jump through that hoop.
A truly thorough survey of an average trawler might take a week, and would be astronomically expensive!
Just saying, A survey is never required to buy, sell, or insure an automobile, which IMO has much more potential to put the driver and occupants at danger!
 
I first hired a CAT mechanic only because I didn't have the software. I learned nothing, except that the Cat 3406E is a solid rock engine. but I lowered price lot from 320000€ to 110000€. good spend money.
 
My issues were definitely created by POs not boat manufacturer. Never ceases to amaze me that people who take their car to a garage for an oil change will think nothing of charging right into boat systems with a handful of unacceptable parts from the big box store.
 
firehoser75 said:
First off, I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt and do your own research.
Most surveyors have disclaimers in their contracts/paperwork that could make it difficult to "hold them accountable", if they are not willing to admit their error(s). Also this would depend on the exact local/state(provincial)/national laws that are applicable in your jurisdiction. However, going to court is usually not a win in any shape of the word, and could end up throwing good money after bad......but could be a consideration (depending on circumstances).
If the issues that were missed are egregious (expensive and should be obvious to a trained surveyor), possibly contacting the accrediting body that this surveyor belongs to would be at least worth a phone call or email, and if "bad enough" contacting a marine lawyer for advice would be in order??
Unfortunately this could end up being a case of "buyer beware" both for the choosing of the surveyor as well as choosing the boat.
Sorry to hear about your situation!! Good luck.
Click to expand...
I am a lawyer, but I am not providing you with legal advise.
 
As a broker of 25+ years I've seen very good surveyors and really bad surveyors. I think the lesson here is to choose a surveyor carefully. I always recommend a SAMS accredited surveyor - www.marinesurvey.org
No, it's not a guarantee of competence but it gives you a starting place. Take a good look at his background, ask for samples of recent surveys, references, and have a direct conversation about what you should expect.

Tell him that you plan to be present throughout the survey. The broker should be as well.

I always suggest hiring a separate engine/mechanical inspector to concentrate on the drivetrain and generator. Choose him just as carefully. You are performing your due diligence within a very compressed time period so things can get missed, but you have to try to minimize errors - that's accomplished by working with the best people you can find.
 
most surveyors are not that good. They more want to prove how smart they are by picking out obvious things. Many make bold statements to feel even smarter they should be able to be held accountable in some fashion.
 
BowtomyStern said:
I am a lawyer, but I am not providing you with legal advice.. But with my Captain's hat on, I can tell you with absolute certainty any SAMS or other certified Surveyor has several disclaimers, and no guarantee clauses peppered throughout the survey, including such things as saying, they will not state an opinion about what is under or behind a wall, deck etc. The survey is a good thing for insurance companies, banks, surveyors and inexperienced boat buyers.
Click to expand...
 
ManoBoat said:
Seeing a number of threads with folks talking about problems they are trying to solve that were not found during a survey, some asking about recourse on the surveyor.

Many folks are not listing what was not found so would like to ask for members to help us prospective buyers know what was missed to help us achieve a better end.

What was missed by your or the surveyor's inspection? What did you do to fix the issue?
Click to expand...
I once considered becoming a marine surveyor and went to see my lawyer to ask his advice before taking the plunge. “ Don’t touch it with a barge pole” he advised me. “ See that pile of documents on that shelf … they’re all lawsuits directed at surveyors!” Needless to say, I followed his advice. Some time later a good friend, a marine surveyor, lost his home in a lawsuit over a survey he had done, not for the man who sued him but for a previous owner who had passed the old survey on. So yes, surveyors can be sued, despite the disclaimers, but their sins of omission need to be pretty egregious. That said, a trawler I purchased a year ago was surveyed by a pretty competent fellow who, nonetheless, missed several areas of delamination in the foc’sle lining and the house sides (glass over marine ply recently rebuilt). Fortunately I was able to replace all the foregoing myself but shudder at what it would cost if local ‘chippies’ were employed at $90 per hour plus!
 
Over the many years I have spent along the waterfront, I have come to know many, many surveyors. Some prefer woodenboats, some power, and some all of the above.
The one theme that is repeated over and over, is a phone call is made to a surveyor and the 1st question asked is when and how much. Few if any ask for their qualifications. Many "buy" price, but never ask well what does your survey include and what is your methodology. Are you doing only visual inspection, sounding the hull with dead blow, or penolic hammer, using a moisture meter, portable endoscope for hard to get to places.
The 2nd is a perspective buyers may request of a broker and will receive, but not always, a potential list of surveyors. Buyers also will take an owner's pre-sale survey as gospel and not spend their money to do their own survey.
If you read a surveyors preamble, they will note that they can only judge condition on what they can see. Hidden issues that can't be seen due to a boats construction that restricts their ability to evaluate. For example; chainplates that are 'glassed in place, keelbolts, \, bulkhead tabbing that is hidden behind a ceiling or cabinet.
I would strongly suggest that one visit the National Marine Surveyors Association too learn more.
Remember, if you buy cheap, you get cheap.
 
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