Boat just lost ac power..

[paulga]

It was the dock breaker. Dock power is two 30a sockets. one socket has somehow flipped half way. AC resumed after I reset both breakers. This is dangerous for winter live aboards when all the electric heaters would turn off.

What could be the reason of the tripping? I have 3 heaters running at the time, all on low settings. The boat has two 30a sockets, the other end of her power cable is hard wired to a single 50a plug. I used a pig tail reverse converter to connect to shore power. Could this lead to over heating?

 

[STB]

A breaker innthe middle position normally indicates that the breakernhas tripped vs being turned off.

Breakers can get softnwithbage, but more often there is a real problem. It can be as simple as salt water shorting thebshore power connector at the boat or pedestal.

The 1st thing I'd docis get a meter with a ample clamp and measure at the pedestal under the normal load. Then I'd measure at the shore power inlet. Then I'd compare that to the boat's ammmeter(s) if available or check with the meter as close to the panel as I could.

The goals are to check the assumption w.r.t. the load andnsee if any load is being imposed by an unintended conduction path along the way.

If there is a higher than expected load starting at the panel, you can shut breakers off while watching the meter to see which circuit is unexpectedly high and go from there to shutting off device(s) on that circuit to further isolate it.

If there is a steady state overload you can find it this way.

You probably don't want to load above 80% on either leg steady state.

If nothing causes a problem you can intentionally jncrease the load to about 80% or 85% on each leg st the pedestal and make sure the breaker don't pop after a few minutes. The goal is to check for a soft breaker. For a few minutes you can even bring it up to 90%

If nine of thisnturns up anything, you've got more.poking to do.

 

[Lepke]

If the dock electrical system momentarily had low voltage, like heaters on several boats all turning on at the same time, it can trip a breaker.
Also, If a breaker gets tripped too many times it becomes weak and trips at lower amps.



Some guy fixed it this way:

 

[STB]

Leaked, good call on possibility of low dock voltage. Strange time of year for that. But anything is possible.

Also...know you were joking with that photo....but just for a newbie googling and without a sense of humor....that doesnt actually work (and woukd be super dangerous if it did).

 

[paulga]

Thanks for your time.. yes, so that breaker has tripped.

since then it has been good like before. but breaker tripping can be very inconvenient and dangerous in winter, as water lines can freeze when heaters stopped working while I'm away.

Where is the pedestal?
And could you recommend a meter with amp clamp?

A breaker innthe middle position normally indicates that the breakernhas tripped vs being turned off.

Breakers can get softnwithbage, but more often there is a real problem. It can be as simple as salt water shorting thebshore power connector at the boat or pedestal.

The 1st thing I'd docis get a meter with a ample clamp and measure at the pedestal under the normal load. Then I'd measure at the shore power inlet. Then I'd compare that to the boat's ammmeter(s) if available or check with the meter as close to the panel as I could.

The goals are to check the assumption w.r.t. the load andnsee if any load is being imposed by an unintended conduction path along the way.

If there is a higher than expected load starting at the panel, you can shut breakers off while watching the meter to see which circuit is unexpectedly high and go from there to shutting off device(s) on that circuit to further isolate it.

If there is a steady state overload you can find it this way.

You probably don't want to load above 80% on either leg steady state.

If nothing causes a problem you can intentionally jncrease the load to about 80% or 85% on each leg st the pedestal and make sure the breaker don't pop after a few minutes. The goal is to check for a soft breaker. For a few minutes you can even bring it up to 90%

If nine of thisnturns up anything, you've got more.poking to do.

 

[Action]

Some guy fixed it this way:

That's one way to get screwed!

 

[paulga]

That's one way to get screwed!

i noticed there is a small hole through the breaker thanks to this creative photo. what's the hole for?

 

[Comodave]

Remember that although they are 30 amp breakers they should not be run continuously over about 24 amps. The weak spot is the L5-30 connector. You should indeed clamp a meter on and see how many amps you are actually using.

 

[DrissZougari]

Paulga,
The hole on the breaker is for connecting to single breakers for 220vservice using a pin or screw & Nut. Both breakers have to be turned on at the same time.

 

[STB]

The right handheld clamp ammeter is like the right footwear. So much depends upon use cases and budget.

One can't go wrong with a fluke. So, if you want to spend ~$300+ start there. Really.

I like this one for the money. Extech's aren't lab equipment. And they aren't Flukes. But I've never killed one. They've always been solid.

This one has a nice small.clamp to get into small places on a boat and does both AC and DC via the clamp:

https://www.tequipment.net/Extech380950.asp#description

This one is similar from Harbor Freight. I buy from harbor freight if I don't mind exchanging a DOA unit and I'm only going to use it a few times. Not lab equipment. And, I've killed plenty. But usually get a few jobs done:

https://www.harborfreight.com/cm610a-600a-t-rms-acdc-clamp-meter-64015.html

To solve exactly your problem you can use an AC-only clamp meter. You don't need DC. So, narrowing the scope saves money:

From the cheap:

https://www.harborfreight.com/400-amp-trms-auto-ranging-digital-clamp-meter-59458.html

To one step above that:

https://www.tequipment.net/Extech/MA440/Clamp-Meters/

To likely locally available:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Digital-Clamp-Meter-AC-Auto-Ranging-400-Amp-CL120/314263058

To the Flukes

 

[STB]

Also, the pedestal is the name for where the shore power cable gets plugged into on the shore side, where the receptacle is and breakers usually are.

 

[tiltrider1]

This may or may not be the case here but in general, boats rarely come wired to adequately handle winter heating.

Most boat run a 10 gauge wire between the 30 amp shore socket and the master panel. If continually running heat in the winter this should be at least an 8 gauge wire.

I also find 30 amp shore cords inadequate for continuous loads over 20 amps. Short term loads of 30 amps is no problem but running heaters 24/7 in the winter is usually more than a 30 amp connector can handle.

Now that a problem has occurred. I would take the time to review everything from pedestal circuit breaker to the boats master panel to be safe.

I always ran 50 amp shore cord while maintaining 30 amp breakers on the boat to prevent any chance of a problem.

You can also find inexpensive amp meters on ebay. They come with a ring that just slides over your power line and they read volts and amps so you know exactly what you are drawing at all times. I have them connected to to both my Shore L1 and L2 as well as the L1 and L2 coming from the generator.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2835222398...224wde2Vww2wnNwWH9JrgnZw==|tkp:Bk9SR6abnPH6Yg

 

[Comodave]

Examine closely all the connections in the shore power route. Look for any melting or signs of overheating. Don’t mess with this because it can easily cause a fire. Replace anything showing signs of overheating. Also check the connections on the dock and have the marina replace any questionable ones.

 

[CharlieO.]

Do you have all three heaters running on the same 30 amp circuit?

For my boat almost all my power only runs through one of the 30 amp circuits. The other 30 amp circuit only runs my air conditioner and one outlet in the lazarette. The outlet in the laz was for a heater since that's where my water tanks are.

 

[ranger58sb]

Dock power is two 30a sockets.

The boat has two 30a sockets, the other end of her power cable is hard wired to a single 50a plug.

Seems like an odd set of wiring to get twin 30A power to a twin 30A boat...

-Chris

 

[CharlieO.]

Seems like an odd set of wiring to get twin 30A power to a twin 30A boat...

-Chris

I know I shouldn't assume but I am assuming he has a 50a receptacle at the pedestal and is using a splitter to go to the two 30a inputs at the boat.

If possible I'd prefer to run two separate 30a cords to two 30a receptacles rather than a splitter on one cord. But that may not help if he's running three electric heaters on one 30a circuit.

 

[paulga]

Remember that although they are 30 amp breakers they should not be run continuously over about 24 amps. The weak spot is the L5-30 connector. You should indeed clamp a meter on and see how many amps you are actually using.

110×24×2 = 5kw

Is this the limit of total work load?

 

[Iggy]

Running 3 heaters, even on a low setting sounds like you would be close to 30 amps.

My experience is, the breakers on the pedestal are not water tight. They don't make one can with stand the marine environment. So over time the dampness gets into them making the harder to trip them by hand.

Point being that they may not trip right away or take a higher load to trip. I have seam them so hard to flip them off that I had to use a hammer and tap them in a off position.

Now internally, I would think ether two things could happen. One, that it would over heat do to the corrosion at lower loads. Or as mentioned, take a high load to trip it.

In any case, if the breaker feels odd in tripping it by hand replace it.

Maybe I should not mentions this problem that I had. But I will. It could go back to the OP problem. Three years ago when I bought my new used boat and summer hit. I turned on the two reverse cycle units. The analog amp meter read 27A. An hour later that power when out on that cord.

I should have mentioned, I have two cords. One for the house and one for the reverse cycle.

I went to the pedestal and smelled something burning, the socket. The terminals and about 1 inch of the wires were corroded. So I replaced the socket and cut the wires back. All good for about 2 weeks. Again the power went out but this time a small amount of smoke from the pedestal.

I went to the Club stock room and got a whole prewired plug assemble. As in https://www.dockboxes.com/product/mpl1124a-50a-20gfci-amber-faceplate-assembly-with-breakers/ But you can get them in many configurations.

After replacing the assemble and turning on the 2 units the amp meter now read closer to 25 amps and after 3 years all good. My thoughts, that there was so much rust in the wiring that made a volage drop and the amperage up.

 

[paulga]

Do you have all three heaters running on the same 30 amp circuit?

For my boat almost all my power only runs through one of the 30 amp circuits. The other 30 amp circuit only runs my air conditioner and one outlet in the lazarette. The outlet in the laz was for a heater since that's where my water tanks are.

The power lines are mostly behind the panels or floors. I don't know how to trace the two 30a sockets on the deck to the outlets. It's possible, as only one breaker at the pedestal tripped

 

[CharlieO.]

The power lines are mostly behind the panels or floors. I don't know how to trace the two 30a sockets on the deck to the outlets. It's possible, as only one breaker at the pedestal tripped

How many and what breakers are you using and that tripped at the pedestal?

If you only have one 50a cord at the pedestal plugged in you should be only running through one breaker to the pedestal so only one breaker would trip. Usually there is more than one outlet on the pedestal and each outlet has it own breaker at the pedestal.

What is exactly do you have plugged into the pedestal?--One 50a cord(pedestal side) going to a splitter to provide two 30a inputs(boat side)??

The breaker that tripped was the 50a on the pedestal?
No breakers tripped on the boat?
What power is available at the pedestal?

Our pedestals have three 120v 30a outlets each with its own breaker.

 

[Patemey]

Is your hot water heater breaker still on? I can see the random event when all three heaters kick on plus the water heater drawing amps and you pop the dock breaker.


Three heaters = one hair dryer + one curling iron. Add in the hot water heater and the dock breaker will go. Ask me how I know..

 

[Bmarler]

Each inlet plug should have its own breaker. You can see what powers what, by unplugging one cord and see what works and what doesn’t.
If one 30 amp cord powers all of the outlets you’ll have trouble running three space heaters.
It’s a dance in the winter, figuring out what you can run at the same time is key.
Before we had two cords we had to turn the water heater off until we were done with other things. Load shedding, gotta figure it out. Every boat is different.

 

[Iggy]

How many and what breakers are you using and that tripped at the pedestal?

If you only have one 50a cord at the pedestal plugged in you should be only running through one breaker to the pedestal so only one breaker would trip. Usually there is more than one outlet on the pedestal and each outlet has it own breaker at the pedestal.

What is exactly do you have plugged into the pedestal?--One 50a cord(pedestal side) going to a splitter to provide two 30a inputs(boat side)??

The breaker that tripped was the 50a on the pedestal?
No breakers tripped on the boat?
What power is available at the pedestal?

Our pedestals have three 120v 30a outlets each with its own breaker.

Just to be clear. A 50 amp socket technically has 2 breakers with a bar going across them to act is one.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Newer breakers may not have a visible connector between the legs. This type has only 1 blade visible in the panel.

 

[Iggy]

Newer breakers may not have a visible connector between the legs. This type has only 1 blade visible in the panel.

Can that go into a Eaton or Fulton pedestal? I don't think the mounting holes will line up? OR will they?

 

[CharlieO.]

I was just going off the OP definition of "tripped one breaker".

I'm not exactly sure what he has at the pedestal side. Could be 120v 50 amp single pole? Could be double pole single throw, could be a double double.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Sorry if I'm causing thread drift. Answer to # 25, Grabbed that photo for example of dp / single blade but yes they fit. Some of the molded face plates are open double width showing the full breaker some are not. Mounted in a disconnect or panel it may be open on the blade side only. I would consider the double tab opening to be the correct installation but I have seen them installed with only the blade visible.

 

[Iggy]

Sorry if I'm causing thread drift. Answer to # 25, Grabbed that photo for example of dp / single blade but yes they fit. Some of the molded face plates are open double width showing the full breaker some are not. Mounted in a disconnect or panel it may be open on the blade side only. I would consider the double tab opening to be the correct installation but I have seen them installed with only the blade visible.

Good to know! Thanks!

I did not mean distract from the thread. But when the OP asked, where is a pedestal. I thought he might need some clarification.

 

[paulga]

I know I shouldn't assume but I am assuming he has a 50a receptacle at the pedestal and is using a splitter to go to the two 30a inputs at the boat.

If possible I'd prefer to run two separate 30a cords to two 30a receptacles rather than a splitter on one cord. But that may not help if he's running three electric heaters on one 30a circuit.

The 1st photo shows the two 30a sockets on the starboard side. The other one shows the two 30a sockets at the pedestal, and the reverse converter that converts the two 30a sockets into one 50a socket. it was the upper breaker that tripped yesterday.

The boat has stayed in a marina for over a decade that has 50a sockets shore power.

 

[DBG8492]

The power lines are mostly behind the panels or floors. I don't know how to trace the two 30a sockets on the deck to the outlets. It's possible, as only one breaker at the pedestal tripped

IIRC, you have a Marine Trader 40 Sundeck - basically the same boat as mine with an extra 4 feet of length.

I also have two 30A inputs, but only one of them supplies house power. The other ONLY powers the reverse cycle AC.and one outlet that I haven't located. At some point,.a previous owner added a separate 30A panel just for the AC and that outlet.

You can trace where it goes from the sockets - especially if yours is where mine are - just outside the sliding door into the salon, to the left if you're exiting that door. If that is the case, look for a green wire, white wire, and black wire - all 10 ga - coming from that area inside the boat - the helm cabinet/wiring closet. Mine crossed the deck under the wiring at the bottom of that cabinet.

There should be two bundles - one for each socket.

If your boat is wired like mine, one 30A running the house and one running the air conditioner, you need to know which 110 outlet is powered by the AC circuit because otherwise, you're probably running all the heaters from just one shore power cable, and it's too much for that circuit.