Boat just lost ac power..

[rgano]

I did not see any strain relief on the cords hanging down from the pedestal plugs.

Be careful about securing seacocks in freezing weather because if water in them freezes the ice has less options for places to expand to.

I have yet to see what heaters you are using - please don't say they are exposed element types, also known as Bic lighters. Unless you are living aboard, all you want to do is keep the air temp above freezing. Fans draw a lot less amperage than a heater and can assist in the distribution of the warmed air.

What purpose is served by running the water heater? Unless it is in a place not accessible to the heated air in the boat, I would not run it. If remote, it would be better to drain it.

Have you considered thermostatic plugs for your heaters, only one per heater, like this: https://tinyurl.com/ms4rptsk

 

[tiltrider1]

I still have concerns about the Y adapter not testing for out of phase power and over loading the neutral. I also have concerns about the boat’s wire size for so much continuous power use. 3 space heaters through a 30 amp connector has been one of the most common causes of marina fires in the PNW. OP dose not know what he doesn’t know and needs to seek some education.

Now it might be that the Y adapters do test for out of phase power but I can’t determine that from the photo’s.

 

[Action]

Have you considered thermostatic plugs for your heaters, only one per heater, like this: https://tinyurl.com/ms4rptsk

Those plugs are cool!
I have never seen those. (And I live in Phoenix, which may explain things)
However I do have a use for something like that. I have a car in Michigan.

 

[Iggy]

To those how know more than I. God knows there out there!!!

I just don't feel good about using two splitters in the OP setup. I do understand that that each leg is 6 gauge vs 10. But you only have one neutral for the return path and you not using the cord as a balanced pair or load. So that one 6 gauge wire is handling the whole load? Yes?

Is it better to have two 10 gauge wire or one 6? I think is the question?

 

[twistedtree]

Yes, I think so too. As has been pointed out, if the two 30A outlets are not opposing legs, then the neutral current is additive, not subtractive, and can max at 60A.

You are also introducing two more connector pairs, and those tend to be the weak spot is shore cords.

Also it’s prohibited by ABYC to join the neutrals on the boat for the inlet circuits for the same reason as above. Using the intermediate cord it then doing exactly what you aren’t supposed to do.

And last (maybe) should either of the shore outlets get converted to RCD breakers, they will trip immediately because of the merged neutrals.

 

[Bmarler]

OP will need to do something different if he’s ever going to plug into a modern pedestal. I prefer the two cords method, and keeping all the neutrals on separate busses.
Also, OP, keep an eye on the temperature of those cord ends, inlet fittings, and the pedestal fittings. If they’re always warm, they’re slowly deteriorating.

 

[paulga]

The power cables are labeled clearly for ac pump and power supply. If this control box provides an ac outlet, it solves the problem, I can plug the space heaters there, because I don't plan to use space heaters and ac at the same time.

This is one ac unit in the v berth

 

[Turtle Blues]

It does not. It contains the main power connection and the line out to power the water pump. They are landed on screw lugs.

 

[paulga]

It does not. It contains the main power connection and the line out to power the water pump. They are landed on screw lugs.

No it does not provide an outlet

I just found the outlet that the v berth heater is plugged in actually is from the secondary socket. I.e. The other twoheaters are from the other socket. Two space heaters at low setting should not have tripped the shore breaker. I'll buy a clamp multimeter kit to do some measurements

 

[Turtle Blues]

Looking at the pictures of your panels my guess is that the original panel has a double pole main breaker which on tripping disconnects L1 and neutral. The second later panel has no main breaker on the panel. Is there one in another location? As others have explained using the 50A cord in the middle of your power run places all circuits on a common neutral which really is not a good idea.
Partial correction for your desired heating would be to use one of the spare breakers on the second panel wired to an outlet for the heater.

 

[SteveK]

Agreed the newer pedastals will most likely not support the setup used by OP.
I have searched for "Y" connections designed to be used at both ends. I came up empty and while it has worked for OP it seems clear a "Y" at both ends was not envisioned. This Marinco PDF shows many splitters available.

 

[SteveK]

As others have explained using the 50A cord in the middle of your power run places all circuits on a common neutral which really is not a good idea.

I am not so sure about this. If the statement is correct why does a 30A or 50A cable have only one neutral.

I am thinking it is more of the imbalance of the loads that is causing tripping. On my boat if I load more than 30A then the boat breaker trips before the shore breaker. My previous boat had the pedastal breaker trip first, so it depends on which breaker is less tolerant.

 

[Iggy]

I am not so sure about this. If the statement is correct why does a 30A or 50A cable have only one neutral.

I am thinking it is more of the imbalance of the loads that is causing tripping. On my boat if I load more than 30A then the boat breaker trips before the shore breaker. My previous boat had the pedastal breaker trip first, so it depends on which breaker is less tolerant.

OR single phase vs 3 phase. Not sure, but could be.............

 

[Turtle Blues]

I didn't explain that very well.
A 50A 230 would indeed only bring in 1 neutral. Issue here is neutrals from both 30A 120 legs are combined at the splitter at the power pole unintentionally. Under normal usage this would probably never be noticed but can cause problems with ELCIs. Believe the preferred installation would be a 50A plug at the pole and the splitter at the vessel connection.

 

[twistedtree]

I didn't explain that very well.
A 50A 230 would indeed only bring in 1 neutral. Issue here is neutrals from both 30A 120 legs are combined at the splitter at the power pole unintentionally. Under normal usage this would probably never be noticed but can cause problems with ELCIs. Believe the preferred installation would be a 50A plug at the pole and the splitter at the vessel connection.

That would be fine if the dock has a 120/240V 50a outlet

 

[SteveK]

Let's face it on the old dock pedastal wirings the system the OP is using will work. Now that I was told the 50A cable is 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground the tripping of one of the two 30A dock breakers is possible.
The OP is already looking for an onsite help to move load over from one circuit to the other.

I still remember when 15A dock pedastals were standard and then 30A plugs started to appear, then 50A single hot, now 50A 2 hots. Yesterday a yacht had two cables which I suspected may be 100A each plugged in the special outlets.

 

[paulga]

That would be fine if the dock has a 120/240V 50a outlet

This marina shore power is 2 30a sockets, there is not 50a socket, at least in the docks I know.

 

[SteveK]

This marina shore power is 2 30a sockets, there is not 50a socket, at least in the docks I know.

If they upgrade to the elci pedastal ask them to install a 50A for you

 

[paulga]

If they upgrade to the elci pedastal ask them to install a 50A for you

Renovation is long term. It requires lots of residents submit request, they discuss and approve funding plan, then implement. But I may not stay in this dock or marina after this winter. So have to do some make shift.

 

[luna]

I didn't explain that very well.
A 50A 230 would indeed only bring in 1 neutral. Issue here is neutrals from both 30A 120 legs are combined at the splitter at the power pole unintentionally. Under normal usage this would probably never be noticed but can cause problems with ELCIs. Believe the preferred installation would be a 50A plug at the pole and the splitter at the vessel connection.

That would be fine if the dock has a 120/240V 50a outlet

Perhaps I am misinformed but my understanding is that the 50A circuit breakers at the pedestal are there to protect the shore cord's wire, it's connectors and the boat's wiring up to the boat's circuit breakers, from currents that they can't safely handle.

If so, using the above shore cord scheme, what device protects the 30A rated wire and connectors between the split in the splitter and the 30A circuit breakers in the boat's distribution panel?

 

[twistedtree]

Perhaps I am misinformed but my understanding is that the 50A circuit breakers at the pedestal are there to protect the shore cord's wire, it's connectors and the boat's wiring up to the boat's circuit breakers, from currents that they can't safely handle.

If so, using the above shore cord scheme, what device protects the 30A rated wire and connectors between the split in the splitter and the 30A circuit breakers in the boat's distribution panel?

Nothing. Technically this sort of arrangement doesn't meet standards, but of course it's widely done.


I think the best approach to bring 120/240V 50A onto a boat that is built with two separate 30A load circuits is to install a separate 120/240V 50A inlet on the boat, backed by a 30A 2 pole breaker, and use a 50A shore cord. Then the wiring and connectors from the dock all the way to the 30A onboard breaker are rated to carry the 50A shore supply.

 

[luna]

Thanks for that. Just as I suspected, although I have no idea if it is widely done or not.

In so far as rewiring the boat to accept 50 A cordset, I agree with you as well. However if you are going to go that far, provided the existing distribution panel is rated for 50 A, a slightly more expensive 50 A breaker and a hundred feet+/- of 6 ga. will go a long way in making the boat a much more comfortable live aboard.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Don't disagree with TT's description and his is the correct permanent remedy.
What I described is the walk in and buy it off the shelf answer most people use, especially if docking in different locations. Voltage drop is a function of size and distance so it measurably improves the delivery. It can make several volts difference in a 50' cord.

As for the pedestal breakers providing protection, best answer is maybe. I see far too many summer dockside low voltage distribution problems resulting in plug burnouts that are at the root, not the boat owners fault. But good luck arguing that. The connector prongs and sockets are always going to be a major point of failure in this situation.

 

[luna]

I would expect that if your wiring, plug and outlet are in good shape, they would safely pass their rated current regardless of the voltage (within reason) otherwise we would have no faith in the rating agencies.

I further suspect that the all too often burnout of some plugs is mostly related to the poor condition of the connection and not an overcurrent condition that the breaker would prohibit.

If you are drawing half the rated current through a poor connection and are losing 150 watts to heat in the confines of the plug/inlet it does not surprise me that it burnt without popping the breaker as there was no overcurrent condition.

My experience is that the transient dock outlets in small marinas are generally in the worst shape. If I need to plug in, I carry one set of loose and insulated plug prongs that I use to assess the condition of the outlet's socket by feel, as they are almost concealed.
If I don't like what I feel, I run the genset.

 

[Comodave]

It was the dock breaker. Dock power is two 30a sockets. one socket has somehow flipped half way. AC resumed after I reset both breakers. This is dangerous for winter live aboards when all the electric heaters would turn off.

What could be the reason of the tripping? I have 3 heaters running at the time, all on low settings. The boat has two 30a sockets, the other end of her power cable is hard wired to a single 50a plug. I used a pig tail reverse converter to connect to shore power. Could this lead to over heating?

Ok, maybe I am missing something but if the dock has 2 30 amp outlets and the boat has 2 30 amp inlets why is there any 50 amp adapters being used? Why not just use 2 30 amp cordsets and get rid of the 50 amp stuff? Why would you have a 50 amp connector on a 30 amp cord?

As to why the dock breaker tripped, either the breaker is weak or you drew more than it is rated for. 3 space heaters running could be close to the 30 amp rating, but you would have to measure the currents draw to make sure. And then if the water heater kicks on you are likely over the 30 amps. Also with L5-30 connectors you should not continuously draw over about 24 amps. They are a crappy connector and have very small contact area.

Given the questions you are asking it is pretty clear that you are in over your level of knowledge so I would highly recommend that you get a certified marine electrician to help you with this.

 

[tiltrider1]

Ok, maybe I am missing something but if the dock has 2 30 amp outlets and the boat has 2 30 amp inlets why is there any 50 amp adapters being used? Why not just use 2 30 amp cordsets and get rid of the 50 amp stuff? Why would you have a 50 amp connector on a 30 amp cord

You are right. There is no logic in introducing two splinters and a 50a cord. The weak link is the 30a connectors and not the 8 gauge wire. Not to mention adding new potential issues such as combined neutral overload and the possibility of plugging into two 30a circuits not out of phase.

 

[STB]

Thanks for the list.
The first one looks nice.. but its jaw only opens to 0.5", so it does not work with the shore power cable, correct?

It might make sense to look review a book about marine electrical before going further and study up a bit. It is hard to get a good big picture understanding from slices if answers kn forums, I think. A good, hands-on mentor helps, too.

Here are a couple of ideas...

https://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-4/dp/0071790330

https://www.amazon.com/Powerboaters-Guide-Electrical-Systems-Second/dp/0071485503

To get a good load current reading, you need to clamp over one conductor at a time. This can usually be done in the pedestal and behind the shore power inlet on the boat or with a double headed adapter that can be plugged in at either end and exposes the wiring. I like the small clamps for these situations as it is easy to get them into places.

Sometimes it makes sense to clamp over the whole cable, but this is usually done to see if there is any net flow, e.g. current out doesnt equal current in. If the meter doesn't read zero across all conductors, then current is returning via somewhere else, overwhelmingly most likely the water-- which can be a big danger to a swimmer or diver, etc. Thisnsituation is called leakage. A bigger clamp is needed for this.

I rarely check for loss using a clamp meter only because I rarely, if ever, find enough loss to be noticed with the one I have. It isn't super sensitive. It is a nice quick-check for a big problem, though. And that gives it merit.

 

[STB]

The ac panel amperage meters looks like this when all 3 heaters are running on Low with water heater on

So all 3 heaters are running off of one 30a socket. The other socket is pretty much unused.

I share everyone else's concerns that you may have some more learning to do before tackling this yourself. And, that probably means that, for now, it makes sense to get a.marine electrician to do a once over on the boat and shore power situation. Itnis cheap insurance if nothing else.

In looking st these gauges, I guess ai need to know what it means fkr the water heater to be on. Is it actually active and heating? Or is there water already jot and the breaker is kn, but it's thermostat has the heating and associated electrical draw dormant?

If you turn off the breaker to the water heater and then run yourself out of hot water, you shkuld be able to flip its breaker on and see the current jump up on that meter. Then you know it is imposing its electrical load.

If that 20 amps is with all of the heater elements engaged and the water heater engaged, and the gauge is accurate, and it is reflective of the load at the pedestal, I don't think.lpad is the problem. But? That is a lot of ifs. And somewhat unlikely.

I don't know what you have. Water heaters are often 10-20A. Space heaters are often 15A.
So, if the three space heaters on lpw draw 5A each, which is a very favorable and somewhat unlikely wild guess, that's 15A. There is no way the water heater is drawing only 5A. I don't see how that can be 20A, as shown, if all is a go.

If the water heater is only 10A, which is also unlikely and favorable in this situation, and the only other load is 3 space heaters on low, drawing a very favorably estimated 5A each, this setup is very marginal. That's 25A on a 30A circuit -- before any minor loads.

Folks don't usually recommend more than 80% load, steady state. That's 24A for a 30A circuit. So, we are over that, even being super favorable in the estimates.

I just don't see how this works out. Best case it pops a breaker when all 4 kick in, keeping it below 80%. Worst case it manages to sit steady state just under 30A until the excessive heat causes failures over time and insulation burns off, leaving exposed wires, etc. Or, maybe worse, the breaker manages to get weak somehow and are and fuse on.

Me no like. Me no like at all. Me no want to see another heater-syaryed fire burn down a whole marina and all of the boat's and possibly people within.

I'd say that it is a good time to get a pro out to do a once over -- and get a good book and do some reading.tk get oriented enough to dig in in ways that are safe and comfortable to do.as you learn, get experience, and otherwise grow.

 

[Bmarler]

I still think cutting the space heater count down to two, on low, then augment with the vessels built in systems. See how the amp draw balances out on the two meters.
This is essentially what I do. I can do two little heaters like that and leave my water heater breaker on. Run the hydronic heat morning and evening. If I need to have another load on, (coffee maker, wife’s hairdryer, etc) I’ll turn something off. It’s just what you do as a livaboard. Learn to make due with what you have.

 

[DBG8492]

IMe no like. Me no like at all. Me no want to see another heater-syaryed fire burn down a whole marina and all of the boat's and possibly people within.

This is the biggest issue for me. If it were just him and his boat parked behind his house - have at it. But in a marina, you have more responsibilities than just your own boat. If one boat catches fire and can't be quickly moved away, it's a near certainty that if it gets out of control, the boats around it will also catch fire, and if the marina is crowded, it could easily burn the whole thing down.

That could ruin the lives of many people and is something no amount of insurance could recover.

In that situation, if you don't know 100% what you're doing - don't do it.