DIY Maintenance

[backinblue]

"Every man has got to know his own limitations."

"If you don't have enough time / money to do it right the first time, why do you think you will have it to do it a second time?"

Part of the answer for the task ahead is whether you can. Part is whether you want to. Part is whether you SHOULD. Part is whether you have a good yard you trust. Part is whether you have the time to take your time, or the money to let the yard take their time.

Boats, dirt homes, its pretty much the same tune. While you "can" do a lot of the jobs, at some point you realize you can allow that to become your life. Or, you can make a call and enjoy the time you were not spending do it. Choose wisely.

Thanks FWT, I completely agree with your thinking and more and more find myself willing to pay someone to do the dirty/difficult work on my house/boat/cars. What I find a little unique about boaters is that they seem more likely to DIY than the typical car/home owner. At the same time, they "generally" have more than average means with boats that cost more than many homes and that are used more for pleasure than primary shelter. That's why it's still somewhat of a head-scratcher for me.

 

[obthomas]

Yachting is expensive. I'm not exactly poor, but I feel like I could not be in Yachting if I did not do much of my own maintenance. I have set aside this week for oil changes and engine zincs. After the new year a quick haul, bottom cleaning and exterior zincs. My boat is up on its maintenance and I have a schedule that attends to all the usual maintenance and repairs. I imagine that I am paying myself $100 per hour.

 

[FWT]

What I find a little unique about boaters is that they seem more likely to DIY than the typical car/home owner. At the same time, they "generally" have more than average means with boats that cost more than many homes and that are used more for pleasure than primary shelter.

Sometimes, it is just enjoyable to be messing around the boat and boatyards. Kinda like making furniture, which is a lot easier to buy. But you just enjoy the task of hand planning an edge, making sawdust, and so forth. And the pride of having done it yourself. Its work, but not work.

Pleasure boating should emphasize pleasure. What makes you happiest is often the right answer for you. Your choices often won't match your neighbor's.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. FWT. That's a BIG part of it for me BUT I'm always seeing "stuff" that needs doing. Frustrating in that I don't have a magic wand OR piles of $$ or two of me.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I mostly do my own work, but for the stuff I have hired out, I have found that paying a huge amount of money is far from a guarantee that the work will be done quickly, or properly. While some things I hired out went great, others have taken so much of my energy project managing, that I might as well have just done it myself and saved a ton of money. I have always kept a close enough eye on how things were going, that I have been able to head off any disasters, or poor workmanship as it was being contemplated, or just started, and have managed to steer the project in the right direction before things went off the rails, but it can be a huge time suck, and is frustrating when you are paying a boat yard to manage the project but they aren't paying enough attention. It is a true pleasure when you hire someone and they totally deliver and do an excellent job, without you having to watch them like a hawk at every step.

 

[ksanders]

“professionally maintained” so often means hiring the wrong person for the job and then paying them to learn on your boat.

This may not be true for large yachts, but smaller boats with smaller boat budgets, this is the case.

I would rather do it myself. I enjoy the work, and have developed the skills over time to do a good job,

 

[ancora]

Yep. I like doing my own work, and it saves money, BUT.... I really do it because I have seen the work "professsionals" do. I have seen some real CRAP from some "high-end" yards....I really would have loved to ask the "technician" - "Would you do that on your own boat? "

I want things done right, not just so they can get the next boat in...

Last yard I was at for bottom paint ("how hard can it be?") painted over my thruster prop zincs - two coats for safety.

For that reason I also do all my own work. I cannot afford to pay a mechanic as good as I am.

 

[firehoser75]

I absolutely agree that whether DIY or paid for many fail to keep accurate and complete records. This adds value as an owner and as a seller. I have tried to build an accurate parts list before they are needing replacement and mention it when having others do work. They often appreciate the time & effort saved by me providing the info and it reduces the labor $. Forums like this can be a real asset for ensuring correct part #s and suppliers are available.
Buyers have appreciated seeing the records and i have never had a question of DIY vs Pro. Just knowing it was done is the key.

+1
When boat shopping and we finally found Pilitak, we looked at a lot of boats. Only one or two had ANY records of maintenance or repairs, and even Pilitak, which had obviously been "looked after", had only some receipts but no actual records. Without records, how does anyone keep track of not only what has been done, but more importantly, when something "needs" doing (maintenance)??? This goes both for a potential buyer but also for the current owner.
Some local mechanics (I have inquired but not used this company) charge from the time they start "loading their truck with tools", travel time from the shop to boat, work time, then travel back and "unloading time" all at the rate of $120 per hour! Actual travel time from their shop to my boat would be at least 20 minutes. Even the independent mechanic that I use, who, by the way is very good, charges $100/hr, but that is for actual time at the boat. I only use him for work I either don't want to do, or don't feel comfortable doing. I do almost all maintenance work myself for all of the reasons others here have mentioned.
For the DYI'ers, if your work "looks" professional, (so for example you run wires in a manner that is "bundled and neat"), your boat looks like it has been well taken care of (overall), and you have good accurate records (receipts as well), then I don't think your ability to sell will suffer at all compared to most "professionally" maintained boats. Like others, I have seen my fair share of shoddy work done by so called "professionals". JMHO

 

[CompuNerd]

I love to learn new things. I'm forever curious.

More knowledge is better than less knowledge; I can make informed decisions.

Hands-on is better than abstract. Nothing teaches me like experience, good and bad.

Money can always be obtained; more lifetime cannot.

Skills improve with age; capabilities lessen with age.

All this goes into the gumbo that is the decision process on whether I will DIY or pay to have it done. I'm sure other folks place different values on these statements and so the ultimate decision is different.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I mostly do my own work, but for the stuff I have hired out, I have found that paying a huge amount of money is far from a guarantee that the work will be done quickly, or properly. While some things I hired out went great, others have taken so much of my energy project managing, that I might as well have just done it myself and saved a ton of money. I have always kept a close enough eye on how things were going, that I have been able to head off any disasters, or poor workmanship as it was being contemplated, or just started, and have managed to steer the project in the right direction before things went off the rails, but it can be a huge time suck, and is frustrating when you are paying a boat yard to manage the project but they aren't paying enough attention. It is a true pleasure when you hire someone and they totally deliver and do an excellent job, without you having to watch them like a hawk at every step.

I totally agree. Hiring so called professionals in the recreational boat service industry is a maddeningly, frustrating endeavor. With the number of unskilled hacks calling themselves professionals and the newbies being turned loose by their 'managers' to learn on my boat the odds of getting a good job done are very small. At just over a year after getting out of a supposedly reputable yard I'm still cleaning up after them. Every time I work on something I find their errors and omissions I have to rectify. The yard that did the original work is very reluctant to help, I've quit calling them. I've tried bringing in other highly recommended pros who can't seem to trouble shoot and identify the problems the first yard left me. Yes it may take me 3 times as long to do something as the "pros". But I don't have to go in after myself and re do the job.

To borrow a phrase from a friend. "Service in the recreational boat service industry can only be though of in terms of animal husbandry".

Unless the job takes tools I can't reasonably acquire or is physically too large a job for me I will almost always go the DIY route.

 

[Xsbank]

RT! You nearly gave me a heart attack! Two of you! Say it ain't so!

 

[backinblue]

Glad to see such hearty conversation on the subject that I started. I'm pretty handy but not a professional craftsman or mechanic like some of you. I can fix most stuff around the house and cars and pretty much built a car from scratch as a teen. After all, that's what we all did for entertainment back then. Many young drivers today can't change a tire, but I made sure my son could before he could drive, although I still help him with brakes and oil changes. Now in my 60's and having the means to do so, I let the marina do the majority of my maintenance on the boat. They are honest and do a good job, so for me it's worth it to save me the time and labor. I still do all the cleaning and waxing and other minor repairs but am happy to give some $$ to the marina for routine maintenance and painting, those kinds of things, that are getting harder for me to crawl around the bilge to do. Like several of you have said, it's all a tradeoff about what you can do, want to do, or can afford to do. Not judging anyone, but good healthy conversation regardless.

 

[backinblue]

RT! You nearly gave me a heart attack! Two of you! Say it ain't so!

One RT is enough! Maybe even more than enough. lol

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[Lepke]

If you want something done right, do it yourself!

Doing your own maintenance will open your eyes to how little labor is needed to do some of the high charges you've had in the past. It also reveals the work quality of the boatyard you were using. And how much paint, zincs, etc., are marked up.

 

[O C Diver]

I like doing my own maintenance. I like it done well, or better. I enjoy the satisfaction of being able to do it myself. To me, it's the same thing as running my own boat. Couldn't imagine owning a boat that I needed a captain to operate.

Ted

 

[SeaMoose]

Buying an old boat, fixing it up, making mistakes along the way, and finally turning it to your own personal palace is the greatest and most joyful thing you can do with your life.

It will take a long time. You will have two, three, even four times the value of the boat invested in it.

But you will achieve true enlightenment when you realize you can fix every piece of it....

 

[SoWhat]

Friend just bought a cat, north of $500K. His idea of maintenance is emptying the waste basket. He does not worry about money. Neither do I. But I will bend a nail to reuse it.

 

[Barking Sands]

I love to learn new things. I'm forever curious.

More knowledge is better than less knowledge; I can make informed decisions.

Hands-on is better than abstract. Nothing teaches me like experience, good and bad.

Money can always be obtained; more lifetime cannot.

Skills improve with age; capabilities lessen with age.

All this goes into the gumbo that is the decision process on whether I will DIY or pay to have it done. I'm sure other folks place different values on these statements and so the ultimate decision is different.

The bolded part is something important as well. Every once in a while I run across something that I do myself and decide....I will never do that again

There isnt much though. I just got done recommissioning my 35 year old shower sump. Its a huge sump of maybe 10 gallons for such a small boat. Added all AC drains into it as well as the termination point for the dry bilge. It was half full of brown goo. When the time was ready...I just went for it. Had to dig out the existing pump that was working but no hose connected, fix all wires and hoses, add a float switch and then pump out what was in there. After that I cleaned and wiped and rinsed. Had to abandon gloves half way through since the goo was inside the gloves...lol. Also added new hose from the shower pan. But when I was done I had everything working and found that the sump its self was in excellent shape and had a neat teak wood top with stainless pull ring. Now keeping it up to speed will be a snap. Well worth it.

 

[FF]

DIY falls into 2 groups , normal maint , like an oil change , bottom paint etc., pro or owner ,no big deal.

Changing a complex system or adding a complex system really depends on the owner.

For most if the owner has the skill set they will do a better job , as they are not under time pressure so can research what a good install consists of. Wait for proper parts and alternate fits.

Most boat yards would not be able to create a good job of adding a noisemaker, installing an air cond into a boat that is not already air cond , or installing a complex hydronic heating system or building in a eutetic reefer .

The best chance of having a great install comes from the seller.

The seller , with luck installs and services what he sells.

There are a few boatyards that can do a good job of a unique nature , but not many.

The most common DIY disaster is the boats electric system where a lack of knowledge is dangerous.

 

[Seevee]

I'm a DIY for the most part. Not necessarily to save money, but to be sure it's done right. And, yes there's usually a cost savings (if I value my time at $0, and almost always a time savings). But, I don't value my time at $0, so occasionally, I'll pay someone else to to stuff... especially stuff I don't want to do, like bottom painting and cleaning, buff and wax.



I'll still hire out stuff, but want to be present and involved to be able to assess the work being done.


My worst experiences is with big boat yards. They hire $20 a hour flunkies and charge $100 an hour for their inferior work. The experts I like to hire are one man shops... so the real expert is working on my boat.

 

[lwarden]

Although like many others here can financially afford to pay someone to work on the boat I do almost all the work myself. I fact, in 7 years of ownership on my previous boat it never had anyone else work on it but myself and that included installing a new engine and transmission and complete rewire of the helm, windlass installation, new upholstery all around, etc. I ended up knowing that boat from top to bottom and there was almost nothing which I couldn't fix, and this experience came in handy on trips where something went wrong and I was able to take care of it without impacting the voyage.

Also, the main thing is that since I'm not paying someone by the hour I don't just replace the bad part but can often rebuild it since I'm not paying by the hour. And when peripheral parts come off they get cleaned well and repainted if needed which a normal mechanic won't bother with.

Of course there are things like pulling the props and checking shafts which I don't have the tools to do so that has to be farmed out. All that said I would rather not do a bottom paint job if there is a quality yard available.

 

[DDW]

While you "can" do a lot of the jobs, at some point you realize you can allow that to become your life. Or, you can make a call and enjoy the time you were not spending do it. Choose wisely.

If only it were that simple. Sometimes my wife says "just write a check" like that would be the end of it. Too often, it is just the beginning. There are many things I would probably pay to have done, if there were a high probability of it being done right. But that is an alternate universe to the one I live in - where I write the check, then spend the time redoing what I wrote the check for. From long experience at this, if I'm writing a check, it is for the tools I need to do that job. At least I have something to show for the money. And from long experience at that, I now have the tools to do almost anything. Yes, it does become your life, but better that life than one chasing down tradesmen to get them to finish or redo their job poorly done.

 

[backinblue]

If only it were that simple. Sometimes my wife says "just write a check" like that would be the end of it. Too often, it is just the beginning. There are many things I would probably pay to have done, if there were a high probability of it being done right. But that is an alternate universe to the one I live in - where I write the check, then spend the time redoing what I wrote the check for. From long experience at this, if I'm writing a check, it is for the tools I need to do that job. At least I have something to show for the money. And from long experience at that, I now have the tools to do almost anything. Yes, it does become your life, but better that life than one chasing down tradesmen to get them to finish or redo their job poorly done.

Maybe you haven't found the right yard. I consider myself lucky, that the marina where I do winter storage not only does quality work, but I trust them to be very honest. It's a small family operation, so I don't mind paying them for things I would rather not do. Their work has always been great with no issues afterward.

 

[firehoser75]

When you find a yard or mechanic like that, "keep them". I have found quality and reliability to be "hit and miss".
One large yard I used (once only) in Bellingham, turned out to be basically "criminal". They charged for work they didn't do (*but were supposed to) and then actually raised the price saying the work took longer than expected!! Oh, by the way, they did not even "dip" the saildrive (after working on it) before starting the engine and moving the boat after relaunch. When I dipped it before taking it home, there was no oil showing on the dip stick. Not a drop. They said they "filled to spec", so that was all that was needed???? Really?
Once back at my home slip in Point Roberts, I found that the wiring had not been changed at all, I called. After raising a "fuss", they did finally agree to send a tradesman up to the Point to correct the issue. He was there all day, but did finally "put it right". Even he commented that the job as reported on the invoices "had not been done" before he corrected it.
It is experiences like that, that cause me to try to watch like a hawk, learn as much as I can before hand (to know what I am looking for), or better yet DYI.

 

[backinblue]

A good example of what I experienced last year is that I wanted to add a 3rd house battery because the house bank was not sufficient for an overnight at anchor running the fridge, etc. After scoping out the job, the mechanic called me and told me that a better, and less expensive option, would be to go up a couple sizes on the 2 existing batteries to get the same capacity as adding a third. Other than new batteries and boxes, the labor was very minimal. They could have charged me a lot more if they did what I originally requested.

 

[kthoennes]

I do almost everything myself because I simply can't find any service techs to work on the boat around here, from complex engine work to (mostly) grunt work like cleaning and waxing the hull. Like some other posters have said, when I call, if the phone is answered at all, I got "I'm booked two months out, call me next year." I've thought about hiring a mobile boat handyman from say Florida, I'll pay the guy's flight, per diem and hotel for say 3-5 days to knock out my to-do list in the spring, but good luck finding anybody who would do that either. And with no decent marine parts stores here, that seriously hampers an arrangement like that as needs arise. At this point in my life I have more money than time and I'd pay to get a lot of jobs done that I could do myself, but good luck finding anybody. DIY because I have no other choice.

I suppose it does teach me about the boat and boat systems which is worthwhile, but even there -- well, for example, I need to replace the fridge this spring. I will have to do it myself because I have no choice, but I think it's highly unlikely I will ever use that knowledge again, and I'd much rather spend time with the family. No choice.

 

[markbarendt]

I find it interesting that many boat owners insist on doing all their own maintenance. There is some value in knowing the ins and outs of your boat systems, but on the other hand I have also heard that some buyers shun boats that have not been professionally maintained. My question is what are the pros and cons of DIY? Is DIY mainly a matter of cost or is it more about being able to do repairs underway when needed? Regarding cost, would a professionally maintained boat with records demand a higher price that would offset the cost of paying for that maintenance? Some owners take on the most difficult tasks, and yet take their cars for an oil change. Thoughts?

Buyers shun buying boats for lots of 'reasons'. IMO, it appears that many of those 'reasons' are purely a subjective bias and or outright inventions used to sway the negotiation.

A buyers wife may for example be demanding a professionally maintained boat because hubby ain't go no skills there and she knows it. You can't fix that problem, no matter how you maintain your boat, because it's just the tip of the iceberg in their relationship problems.

If the boat is well maintained, it will show, regardless of who does the work.

I don't believe professional maintenance adds any extra value at resale time.

 

[backinblue]

Buyers shun buying boats for lots of 'reasons'. IMO, it appears that many of those 'reasons' are purely a subjective bias and or outright inventions used to sway the negotiation.

A buyers wife may for example be demanding a professionally maintained boat because hubby ain't go no skills there and she knows it. You can't fix that problem, no matter how you maintain your boat, because it's just the tip of the iceberg in their relationship problems.

If the boat is well maintained, it will show, regardless of who does the work.

I don't believe professional maintenance adds any extra value at resale time.

Thanks Mark. I agree to an extent, although I still think that professional maintenance CAN (but not always) add to resale value. For instance, you often see ads claiming a boat was maintained by a reputable yard with an open checkbook. In those instances, along with corresponding documentation, it can add to the value when a buyer can review records and costs that the previous owner invested in the boat. One question my last surveyor asked was who maintained the boat. Also, if the owner has limited records, can you really believe that a 1000 hour diesel maintenance was adequately performed for instance? I agree that an owner-maintained boat can be as good or better, but it's subjective by the buyer and surveyor.

 

[DDW]

Maybe you haven't found the right yard. I consider myself lucky, that the marina where I do winter storage not only does quality work, but I trust them to be very honest. It's a small family operation, so I don't mind paying them for things I would rather not do. Their work has always been great with no issues afterward.

You are in a dream situation. I also know a couple of yards where the work is reliably good and reasonably priced. They are a rarity. If you happen to keep your boat at one, so much the better. Finding the right yard seems to be a matter of trial and error, paid for with high bills for botched jobs. If you are cruising, finding one is but a temporary win. I found two on the east coast, but moved on from each.