DIY Maintenance

[rslifkin]

In all fairness.... a boat evolving from years of DIY work is going to look different than a professionally done refit. Pro work that is just adding part of a system or individual appliance, might look not much different that what was there to begin with.



If that DIY owner took it down to scratch like many pro refits...it might come a lot closer in looks.


A lot is what you start.... with versus starting fresh or with a first rate layout to begin with.

Agreed. Most of the struggles I have with keeping things neat on my own boat relate to either existing equipment or just not being able to exactly duplicate something the original builder did, as I'm adding or changing, not replacing everything. It also doesn't help that I refuse to perpetuate the stupidity the builder used in wire colors (with black as hot, white as ground for 12v stuff, except when it's large stuff like battery cables where they used normal red/black).

 

[backinblue]

Agreed. Most of the struggles I have with keeping things neat on my own boat relate to either existing equipment or just not being able to exactly duplicate something the original builder did, as I'm adding or changing, not replacing everything. It also doesn't help that I refuse to perpetuate the stupidity the builder used in wire colors (with black as hot, white as ground for 12v stuff, except when it's large stuff like battery cables where they used normal red/black).

Do you think they used the black/white scheme to replicate house wiring?

 

[rslifkin]

Do you think they used the black/white scheme to replicate house wiring?

That's my guess. It's led to others working on the boat screwing things up, however, so anything I replace or add gets changed to standard red/black. Nothing like the factory having installed a battery charger with 2 outputs. White, Red, and Black wires from the charger. The red and black were both hot, white was ground. That charger died when a yard was doing work and had to disconnect it, then proceeded to hook it up wrong, assuming the black had to be ground.

 

[psneeld]

Furuno electronics used black and white in their power cords for years... pretty sure at least till 2003 or past but I was out of installing by then.

 

[slowgoesit]

There's a big difference between:

"Professionally Maintained" (worked on by "professionals")

and maintained to a "Professional Standard"! (work completed correctly, orderly, and to high standards)

I've known DIY'ers that maintain to a "Professional Standard"
and I've seen "Professionals" that don't know their head from a hole in the ground . . . (putting it nicely) . . . and their work reflects their lack of direction/experience/training/job ethic, or just plain interest in doing a "Professional" job.

 

[ancora]

You cannot put a price on the satisfaction a DIYer gets after completion of a repair. I enjoy hearing the "war stories" of people who pay through the snot locker to get their boats repaired.

 

[DDW]

Total time: 55 minutes and better than the original version. I would guess it would take an hour of dealing back and forth with the yard and I would still have a $500 bill.

That has been a typical experience for me. I'd spend as much time dealing with the shop as dealing with the problem myself. In paying the typical shop, I've paid for the job twice - once in their bill and once in my time to deal with the shop.

Some of the nicest installs I've ever seen are DIY by a skilled and patient owner. But vast majority of DIY installs are junk and detract from the value of the boat.

I'll also agree that a great many DIY'ers should have hired a "professional". Like "professionals", DIY'ers come in competent, incompetent, and downright dangerous. There is a natural check on the professionals, in that the latter two categories tend to make a business unprofitable, but due to a lack of the former they are still ubiquitous. There is no natural check on DIY'ers. A friend of mine used to maintain that you should need a license backed up by a training course to be allowed to shop at Home Depot, to prevent some of the carnage that ensues from easy access to materials and tools by persons of average skill.

 

[Barking Sands]

Just want to say this discussion is full of excellent perspectives and useful info from all sides. I appreciate everyone's input here.

 

[boomerang]

Sometimes I amaze myself by how long it's taken me to do a job (correctly) on our own boat that I thought would've taken 1/2 hour- 45 minutes and ends up taking a half a day. I guess until you have been on both sides of the fence, boat owner/consumer & boat technician/repair person/installer, you really can't appreciate the price charged by a reputable company.

Here's a couple of pictures I snapped of a 185' commercial vessel's steering relay box that had just come out of the shipyard for a multi-million dollar refit. The captain was complaining of poor autopilot performance. I figured it was a safe bet to start looking here. Even a novice DIYer couldn't have done much worse than this job by this particular electronics company! (And FYI, I did figure out and make a repair of issue but declined to tidy up the mess. I insisted the company that made the mess clean up their own mess, which I believe they did when the boat went back to the shipyard.)

 

[sbman]

When I had my boat hauled to have it transported over land to a dry yard for my refit work, the yard quoted me a price for the haul and load. When the boat was loaded, we had to remove the arch over the flybridge. This was expected but was not directly quoted ahead of time as it was up to me to determine the method of execution. I asked the yard for a guy with a saw to cut it off. They provided one guy armed with a sawzall and a second guy in the small onsite crane to hold it up and set it down. The sawzall he brought out was battery powered and had a used blade in it still warm from another job in the yard, he never changed it and took it back to the job he came from. Total time to remove the arch was 20 minutes for the two guys, they laid it on the deck with the crane, I did the rest, clean up, tie down, padding, etc...

I expected to be billed a fee for the crane and probably an hour minimum for each guy that did the work. What I didn't expect was to be billed for 3 hours for each guy plus a $10 box of Sawzall blades billed at $50. There was also the expected fee for the crane. The billing to remove the arch exceeded the entire bill for haul/pressure wash/load on truck.

I understand the cost of doing business and that the yards have lots of overhead with insurance, benefits, equipment, etc... But I also expect a fair and equitable accounting of what work was actually done and to be billed for materials that were actually used, not boxes of things that didn't exist. Experiences like that make DIY seem pretty attractive.

 

[kthoennes]

Well, I'm sure we've all seen shockingly awful DIY repairs and modifications to boats (like painter's making tape on hand-twisted wire connections on our old Carver -- of course the masking tape eventually dried out and crumbled off and the wiring arc'd on the engine). But on the other hand I'll bet a lot of us have seen shockingly bad work by "professionals" too. Or even junk or faulty parts that fall apart or malfunction no matter who installed them. Last season for example I replaced the berth reading lights with LED goosenecks with handy USB chargers in the base. How complicated can that be? Turns out there was a bare wire exposed inside the enclosed base of one of the lights, a tiny wire too small to trip the breaker but it carried just enough current to gradually heat up the base of the fixture so hot you couldn't touch it. I was straightening the kids' blankets in the forward berth and vaguely smelled something warm. DIY or pro, unless the installer had disassembled the base of that light, you'd never see the wiring problem or the danger of a measly 12v berth LED reading light burning down your boat. Just a minor example but I mention it because in my mind boat maintenance and service comes down to skill and carefulness and parts quality, and I'm not sure we can generalize very well between DIY'ers and pro's.

 

[backinblue]

I am pretty good with a lot of what I can do on my boat/cars/house. I think my reason for this discussion is that I have some friends that never pay for any maintenance and yet they have no problem writing a $5K check for a 6 month slip. It feels like it's a money issue. Another friend lives in a very expensive waterside home. So even though they can afford it, they choose to do all maintenance to save money. I'm not talking about a major refit, but even the basic things. To me, if your boat is wintering in the marina for a couple grand anyway, why not pay them a few hundred to paint the bottom? It's not about quality of workmanship at that point. Yes you can save a few hundred by laying on the ground and getting painted yourself, but why?

 

[psneeld]

To get it done right. Have seen too many bottom paint failures from marinas that painted in fog, over dew, wrong paint, etc...etc...

 

[Simi 60]

To get it done right. Have seen too many bottom paint failures from marinas that painted in fog, over dew, wrong paint, etc...etc...

Amateur hour
So called pros charging pro rates and higher
Criminal in my eyes, straight out thievery.

Have come across my fair share that call themselves a trade in this industry but a lot of them aren't a tradesman's ar__hole.
Either that or the standards I was trained to at college and on the job have dropped dramatically over the years.

 

[BandB]

I find it interesting that many boat owners insist on doing all their own maintenance. There is some value in knowing the ins and outs of your boat systems, but on the other hand I have also heard that some buyers shun boats that have not been professionally maintained. My question is what are the pros and cons of DIY? Is DIY mainly a matter of cost or is it more about being able to do repairs underway when needed? Regarding cost, would a professionally maintained boat with records demand a higher price that would offset the cost of paying for that maintenance? Some owners take on the most difficult tasks, and yet take their cars for an oil change. Thoughts?

Ok, I'm a bit of an outlier. Even with a small boat on the lake, I never did any of my own maintenance. Had no interest, had no skill or knowledge, and could afford.

I think many factors and the largest is cost, but also ability and desire. Some enjoy working on their boats. As to quality, doing it yourself can lead to poor quality work as can choosing the wrong mechanic. I always worked very hard to find people I trusted. Having good maintenance records helps make a sale, although I'm not sure it raises the price.

I find it a bit ironic too when someone changes the oil in their boat but not in their car but the huge difference is price. There is just no payback in savings in doing your own auto oil change.

I think the most important thing for one to learn is what they should do themselves and what they should pay to get done. Pay for too much and it makes affording boating difficult for some. Try to do too much can make boating miserable. Just find the balance that is appropriate for you.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,

Mr. BB. An oil change on a car is pretty well a no-brainer. An oil change on a boat seems to be an advanced form of rocket science only able to be accomplished by "the mechanic" @ $120/hr.

I was pressed for time, at one point, and MY oil change was north of $400 (twin Lehmans) AND the injector pump oil was NOT changed (an absolute necessity for Lehmans every engine oil change) in spite of the fact "the mechanic" was a Lehman "expert".


I do have a Reverso oil changing system plumbed into both engines.

 

[BandB]

Greetings,

Mr. BB. An oil change on a car is pretty well a no-brainer. An oil change on a boat seems to be an advanced form of rocket science only able to be accomplished by "the mechanic" @ $120/hr.

I was pressed for time, at one point, and MY oil change was north of $400 (twin Lehmans) AND the injector pump oil was NOT changed (an absolute necessity for Lehmans every engine oil change) in spite of the fact "the mechanic" was a Lehman "expert".


I do have a Reverso oil changing system plumbed into both engines.

You point out something else too and that is every boat is different, both the engine and the oil change set up. But you made my point with $400 change vs. $30 or $40.

 

[Lou_tribal]

You point out something else too and that is every boat is different, both the engine and the oil change set up. But you made my point with $400 change vs. $30 or $40.

Same apply to many things.
I remember a long time ago, I have been caught up with worn out brake pads on my car in winter, no garage so I went to the brand dealer... Cost me 250$ where parts are 60. My bad I was caught but that is a hard thing to swallow and never was I back to an shop for this. I change my brake pads, it takes me 30 minutes to 1h max and I feel the satisfaction of done work.
On the other hand I also know that this is not the pleasure of everybody, some don't know how, or don't like to. I have a friend able to hurt himself if he plays with a screwdriver so I understand.

L

 

[Mischief Managed]

Fun topic to peruse. I am a big time DIY guy in life (not just boating), and I have done all kinds of nifty things over the years. I try to do all my own work on my boat, but I did pay a mobile mechanic 100 bucks (his minimum charge) to show me how to adjust my rudder seals last Summer. The lock nuts would not budge on them and I was afraid I would do some damage with my 24" pipe wrench if I kept adding force. The mechanic used a couple of small pipe wrenches and a hammer to loosen them using light impacts, instead of brute force, without damage. It was money well spent and I now own the same small wrenches he used.


One of my CAT3208TA injection pumps started leaking late last season so I removed the pump after the boat was pulled for the season and dropped it off at a trusted specialist shop (a good friend of mine builds competition diesele pulling tractors and swears by this shop for all his fuel system work) for expert help. I could probably fix it myself, but it is worth the $1400 to me to have the 29 year old pump professionally refurbished to new condition, just because it's a lot of work to R&R and if I screw up, I will be furious with myself. I also had my injectors tested and the guy found one good, five fair, one poor and one "junk" injector on my motor. I am getting 8 new injectors and keeping the good injector as a spare. Hoping this fixes the high fuel consumption in this engine and loss of 200 RPM and 2 knots at WOT.



While I have the injection pump out, I'm replacing all the hoses and belts, and all gaskets and seals I can get to without pulling the engine out. I'm also cleaning up and repainting the engine; cleaning the oil coolers, after cooler, and heat exchanger; and chemical flushing the cooling system.



I lucked out and discovered the raw water pump on this engine has a fracture in the casting and bad bearings. I'm sure the pump would have failed at some inopportune time had I not found it this way.



I started the re-assembly process yesterday by placing the starboard cylinder head back on the engine. I was going to bolt it down but learned that I needed special lube for the heald bolt threads and washers so I had to make a 2 hour trip to my local CAT dealer to get said lube (Loctite 51049/Loctite LB 8012/CAT 6V-4876 Molykote).


I am really getting to know my engines well by doing this work myself.

 

[rslifkin]

I find it a bit ironic too when someone changes the oil in their boat but not in their car but the huge difference is price. There is just no payback in savings in doing your own auto oil change.

I decided a few years ago that even though changing my own oil in cars wasn't really any cheaper, it was worth it. By the time I take the car somewhere and have them change the oil, I've burned enough time that I could just do it myself. At that point, might as well DIY and not be bound to someone else's schedule. It's just easier that way.

 

[BandB]

On the other hand I also know that this is not the pleasure of everybody, some don't know how, or don't like to. I have a friend able to hurt himself if he plays with a screwdriver so I understand.

L

I am among that group. Could I learn? Probably, but no desire to. I don't like filling the car with gas and wear gloves to do so. I remember when I was very young and had to spend on some form of service and maintenance. It never crossed my mind to do it myself to save money, but I did think of what do I need to do to make the money to pay for it or gain back what I just spent. So while many would think of ways to avoid the expense, I'd think of ways to recover it.

I think it's important for all of us to realize all of us think differently and our minds work differently.

My father said I spent more time figuring out how to get out of work than doing it, but I remember one time he gave me a task to do that he spent four hours doing in his office every week. I complained every moment about how stupid it was (I was about 14 at the time). I finished and then spent the afternoon devising a better method. I reduced his 4 hour per week job to 15 minutes a week. Was very difficult for him to complain about my effort to get out of work. I also thought like a consultant that since he billed $100 an hour for his time and I'd saved him about 200 hours per year or $20,000 for the first year, as a efficiency consultant I should get 50% of the first years savings. That didn't work out though.

 

[ancora]

When Henry Ford had a production problem, he would assign his laziest employee to the bottleneck. Invariably, the lazy employee would solve the problem.

 

[boathealer]

When Henry Ford had a production problem, he would assign his laziest employee to the bottleneck. Invariably, the lazy employee would solve the problem.

The man was a genius.

"If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

 

[backinblue]

Also, my dad used to say: "If you want to get something done, give it to the busiest person."

 

[tiltrider1]

I don’t diy my car oil changes. Mostly due to living at a marina, needing to elevate the car and the fact that it can be done so cheap and fast at the local shop. Now an oil change on my boat is a $1,000 and I can do it for $150 with the hardest part being walking down the dock with 10 1 gallon jugs of oil.

I also just replaced the hot water heater on my boat. This is a job I definitely wanted to do my self. Two months ago I replaced the fresh water pump. I realized what a potential disaster my plumbing was. When the hot water tank started to leak I knew it was time to do things right. Once I got the old tank out I realized it wasn’t the HW tank that was leaking. It was the crappy installation of the water maker. They must have cut in a plastic T into the water line before Installing the water maker on top of it. I found plastic barbs, couplers and T’s everywhere. All these 20-30 year old plastic parts were professionally installed by after market accessory suppliers. I ended up removing 20’ of unneeded hose and 15 plastic fittings were replaced with bronze fittings. I went ahead and replaced the old 20 gallon HWH with a new 30 gallon HWH. This is why I like to DIY boat work, it gets done to a higher standard.

 

[Seevee]

Interesting comments about time spent, profits and quality.


One thing about businesses (boat yard, mechanic or whatever), they operate at different levels of efficiency, and that often produces more profits and lower costs to their customers.


If the one man shop is spending 50% of his time on administrative work, he needs a lesson in the "office management" side of his business.



Yes, one CAN get rich charging $110 an hour for his employees. Just have to think and operate smarter. Keep the costs below the revenue. I know several folks that have done it, done well and provided good service for their customers.

 

[DDW]

To me, if your boat is wintering in the marina for a couple grand anyway, why not pay them a few hundred to paint the bottom? It's not about quality of workmanship at that point. Yes you can save a few hundred by laying on the ground and getting painted yourself, but why?

It is VERY easy to botch a bottom paint job, proven by how often they are botched. And charges can vary in the extreme. I've sanded the bottom of my sailboat 4 times, once myself and 3 times by "professionals". The cost has varied 4x and the quality of the work about 6x. And inversely correlated I might add. After the very first time the bottom was painted I gave up on having the professionals put on the paint, it looked like a stucco job. The sanding is a lot of labor, takes me about 24 hours. One really good workman in Canada did a very nice job of it in about 9 hours, the very same yard a year later (but different workmen) took 60 hours and did a bad job of it.

I find it a bit ironic too when someone changes the oil in their boat but not in their car but the huge difference is price. There is just no payback in savings in doing your own auto oil change.

Took the wife's car into the dealer to get an oil change ("why don't you just write a check?"). They left the filler cap off, spraying the engine compartment with oil. Drove back to the dealer, they put the cap back on and cleaned it a bit, made an appointment to have the engine properly cleaned and detailed, took it back, went and picked it up. Each trip with two cars as the one has to be left there. So for an oil change, I had 5 round trips to the dealer with two cars each time, plus a fair amount of waiting. Each trip is about twice the time it would take to actually change the oil, so I've got: 1) a bill to change the oil, and 2) 20x the man hours into it compared to just doing it myself. So yes, there can be payback in savings doing your own oil change.

 

[sbman]

I decided a few years ago that even though changing my own oil in cars wasn't really any cheaper, it was worth it. By the time I take the car somewhere and have them change the oil, I've burned enough time that I could just do it myself. At that point, might as well DIY and not be bound to someone else's schedule. It's just easier that way.

It can be cheaper. On one of my cars, the oil change place didn't put the filter on tightly, it came loose a few miles after leaving, dumping all it's oil down the side of the engine. Thankfully I got it stopped in time before the engine was destroyed. I towed it back over there and they corrected it by cleaning the side of the engine and re-doing the oil change. Less than 20 miles later, the serpentine belt shredded, the harsh cleaner they used destroyed the belt.

It cost an additional $200 at a shop to have a new belt put on. I then decided to do my own oil change the next time.

When I did so, I discovered that they had stripped out the drain plug and that it would not tighten up, and it also would not loosen, just spinning in the hole. The oil pan had to be replaced, that's a $600 job at a shop.

So it ended up being an $800 oil change for a simple 4 door car.

For me, I enjoy doing maintenance and repair work myself. If it's done poorly or incorrectly, I've got no one to blame but myself.

It often doesn't take any longer to do it myself than the time it takes to do everything involved in finding someone to do it that will actually show up and get the job done. This has applied to home repair work, boat work and car work equally.

 

[psneeld]

Gonna try one of these.


Should make oil changes faster, cleaner, easier, no threat of stripped drain plugs.

 

[Seevee]

Gonna try one of these.


Should make oil changes faster, cleaner, easier, no threat of stripped drain plugs.

Have one similar for my plane engines and can change oil in both engines in the same time it take to get a mechanic, deal with them and pay their invoice. Good product.


For the common maintenance items, I could argue strongly to do them yourself. After you've done a few, you'll do those WAY faster than the typical mechanic.... and won't screw it up.


That's probably akin to hiring a maid to wash the dishes.