DIY Maintenance

[backinblue]

You are in a dream situation. I also know a couple of yards where the work is reliably good and reasonably priced. They are a rarity. If you happen to keep your boat at one, so much the better. Finding the right yard seems to be a matter of trial and error, paid for with high bills for botched jobs. If you are cruising, finding one is but a temporary win. I found two on the east coast, but moved on from each.

Since I don't leave my home port for more than a couple weeks at a time, I am happy with the yard I use for winter storage and maintenance. They have been around as long as I have, maybe longer. I bought a new sailboat from them many years ago. Back then I couldn't afford maintenance and even cut holes in my new boat myself to install instruments and transducers. I may summer with them eventually but at a yacht club currently. I pay them to do some things each season because I trust they are honest and do good work and I don't mind supporting a small business like that when it saves me time and trouble.

 

[ksanders]

Part of the DIY Vs boatyard problem is with supposedly skilled technicians that are not so skilled.

The other part of the problem is with US, the recreational boating community.

In general WE are cheapskates and do not want to pay for the actual labor to do work on our boats.

Lets pick a job and dissect it to demonstrate the problem.

Lets pick a easy job. How about fixing a defective water tank level gauge on my Bayliner 4788. This one is pretty familiar to me.

So... We call the boat yard down the road and they agree to send a tech over. Lets go over the labor hours needed to do this one little job.

09:00 Tech leaves the shop (the labor clock is now ticking.
9:15 he gets parked
9:30 he finds the boat, and the hidden key and gets onboard.
9:45 He has determined that yes the gauge is not working
10:15 he has found the sender under the main berth after removing the mattress, and the owners gear in the compartment, and has opened up the access panel.
10:45 He has diagnosed that the tank sender is defective and called the shop for a replacement, yes they have one of that model.
11:15 he is back at the boat with the new sender
11:45 The new sender is installed and tested.
12:15 he has put back the mattress, all the owners stuff, tidied up his mess and is leaving the boat.
12:30 He is back at the shop
12:45 he has billed out the customer and is ready for his next job. He rounds down the labor bill to 3.5 hours at $115 per hour.

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

 

[backinblue]

Part of the DIY Vs boatyard problem is with supposedly skilled technicians that are not so skilled.

The other part of the problem is with US, the recreational boating community.

In general WE are cheapskates and do not want to pay for the actual labor to do work on our boats.

Lets pick a job and dissect it to demonstrate the problem.

Lets pick a easy job. How about fixing a defective water tank level gauge on my Bayliner 4788. This one is pretty familiar to me.

So... We call the boat yard down the road and they agree to send a tech over. Lets go over the labor hours needed to do this one little job.

09:00 Tech leaves the shop (the labor clock is now ticking.
9:15 he gets parked
9:30 he finds the boat, and the hidden key and gets onboard.
9:45 He has determined that yes the gauge is not working
10:15 he has found the sender under the main berth after removing the mattress, and the owners gear in the compartment, and has opened up the access panel.
10:45 He has diagnosed that the tank sender is defective and called the shop for a replacement, yes they have one of that model.
11:15 he is back at the boat with the new sender
11:45 The new sender is installed and tested.
12:15 he has put back the mattress, all the owners stuff, tidied up his mess and is leaving the boat.
12:30 He is back at the shop
12:45 he has billed out the customer and is ready for his next job. He rounds down the labor bill to 3.5 hours at $115 per hour.

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

Great example Kevin. If this was me, and I didn't have the time or inclination to do the repair myself, I would consider the $500 bill reasonable for what you described.

 

[psneeld]

I agree 110% with Kevin's post and I disagree that many boat owners would think that it was a fair price except if it's an expensive boat and they have more money than time to argue.


Unfortunately, Kevin made it a pretty simple example. Often the bill is even higher than that because of faulty parts, the decking over the tank has no access port and some of the screw heads to remove it are stripped, the new part has a molded wire and plug where the old one didn't and the tech has to call customer support to see what the best option is and is on hold for 1/2 hour. Etc...etc...etc.... Been there done that as both the tech and the customer.

 

[markbarendt]

Thanks Mark. I agree to an extent, although I still think that professional maintenance CAN (but not always) add to resale value. For instance, you often see ads claiming a boat was maintained by a reputable yard with an open checkbook. In those instances, along with corresponding documentation, it can add to the value when a buyer can review records and costs that the previous owner invested in the boat. One question my last surveyor asked was who maintained the boat. Also, if the owner has limited records, can you really believe that a 1000 hour diesel maintenance was adequately performed for instance? I agree that an owner-maintained boat can be as good or better, but it's subjective by the buyer and surveyor.

You are in a dream situation. I also know a couple of yards where the work is reliably good and reasonably priced. They are a rarity. If you happen to keep your boat at one, so much the better. Finding the right yard seems to be a matter of trial and error, paid for with high bills for botched jobs. If you are cruising, finding one is but a temporary win. I found two on the east coast, but moved on from each.

I agree with DDW with regard to maintenance, the only thing that counts is that it was done correctly.

Backinblue, what I think you are leaving out of your calculations is the up front cost of the ‘professional’ maintenance. I’d suggest that there is no possible way to get back any significant portion of the extra cost of the professional work when you sell the boat.

 

[markbarendt]

Great example Kevin. If this was me, and I didn't have the time or inclination to do the repair myself, I would consider the $500 bill reasonable for what you described.

That is a perfectly reasonable life choice.

IMO that choice doesn’t, shouldn’t, and wouldn’t affect the selling price of a boat.

 

[Barking Sands]

Ksanders you are right about that. Knowing and estimating what it is likely to cost in time for the entire job in man hours should be one of the factors to decide whether you DIY or pay someone else. The job you describe is a perfect example. That would be a DIY for sure. You can also save money by saving the techs time. Clear the area, pull the access covers, define the job, tell the tech you will close it all back up and tidy up, have any manuals or prints ready, and of course be there if possible to answer questions.

Or just pay to have it all done knowing what the likely cost may be. One thing that helps you swallow the bill is that when the tech is done its actually fixed. Cant tell you how many nightmare stories from friends that tell me about the bill they had to pay only to find it didn't fix the issue.

 

[backinblue]

I agree with DDW with regard to maintenance, the only thing that counts is that it was done correctly.

Backinblue, what I think you are leaving out of your calculations is the up front cost of the ‘professional’ maintenance. I’d suggest that there is no possible way to get back any significant portion of the extra cost of the professional work when you sell the boat.

My point was that some of extra cost in paying for maintenance, could increase the value of the boat. If you have records including costs, of money that an owner invested vs. just receipts for parts and fluids of DIY, it "could" add value or at least help move the sale forward. An expensive purchase of a used boat comes with lots of anxiety. Anything that lessens that is a plus.

 

[backinblue]

That is a perfectly reasonable life choice.

IMO that choice doesn’t, shouldn’t, and wouldn’t affect the selling price of a boat.

I agree about this repair affecting the selling price. I was more referring to a boat that is regularly maintained by a boatyard vs. DIY. Whether it's right or wrong, I do think there can be some differences in perceived value by the buyer. Nothing against many of the skilled owners who diligently maintain everything, but more of a perception by the potential buyer, right or wrong.

 

[rslifkin]

I did enough DIY work last winter to probably give a boatyard bill north of $10,000 in labor. No way would having paid for all of that work provided a $10k increase in boat value to any buyer.



Personally, I couldn't care less who maintained a boat, I care more that it was maintained and all checks out in good condition. Even with questionable record keeping, if something is 30 years old or has many operating hours on it and it checks out healthy, in good condition, etc. the maintenance can't have been too bad.

 

[markbarendt]

I agree about this repair affecting the selling price. I was more referring to a boat that is regularly maintained by a boatyard vs. DIY. Whether it's right or wrong, I do think there can be some differences in perceived value by the buyer. Nothing against many of the skilled owners who diligently maintain everything, but more of a perception by the potential buyer, right or wrong.

Yes, there are surely certain individuals that would be more likely to buy a professionally maintained boat.

I would suggest though that there is also a separate and much larger set of individuals who are more motivated by how sharp the boat looks.

IMO you’ll probably get more money, faster, when you sell, by having the boat professionally detailed before each showing day instead of having a pro change the oil for the next 20 years.

 

[DDW]

Part of the DIY Vs boatyard problem is with supposedly skilled technicians that are not so skilled.

The other part of the problem is with US, the recreational boating community.

In general WE are cheapskates and do not want to pay for the actual labor to do work on our boats.

Lets pick a job and dissect it to demonstrate the problem.

Lets pick a easy job. How about fixing a defective water tank level gauge on my Bayliner 4788. This one is pretty familiar to me.

So... We call the boat yard down the road and they agree to send a tech over. Lets go over the labor hours needed to do this one little job.

09:00 Tech leaves the shop (the labor clock is now ticking.
9:15 he gets parked
9:30 he finds the boat, and the hidden key and gets onboard.
9:45 He has determined that yes the gauge is not working
10:15 he has found the sender under the main berth after removing the mattress, and the owners gear in the compartment, and has opened up the access panel.
10:45 He has diagnosed that the tank sender is defective and called the shop for a replacement, yes they have one of that model.
11:15 he is back at the boat with the new sender
11:45 The new sender is installed and tested.
12:15 he has put back the mattress, all the owners stuff, tidied up his mess and is leaving the boat.
12:30 He is back at the shop
12:45 he has billed out the customer and is ready for his next job. He rounds down the labor bill to 3.5 hours at $115 per hour.

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

No one wants to work for free, me neither. But the inefficiency in the above timeline is hard to ignore. From 10:15 - 11:45 there is some useful semi-skilled work being done. 1.5 hours. Billed at 3.5 hours. My reasoning is, the owner already knew the sender didn't work, and already knew (or should have known) where it was located. The rest is travel time, finding things and learning things on the boat, etc. So if I do the job myself, I am effectively making $440/1.5 or about $300/hr. $400/hr if I consider the tax consequences. There are attorneys that don't make that much, even with their license to steal. The tradesman himself is unlikely to be making more than $30/hour.

Second is the billing rate. Unfortunately, contained in that billing rate, beyond overhead and profit, is a large chunk for "come backs", that is, redoing the job after it's been botched. The auto repair industry is famous for this, some estimates are 60% of the bill is to cover come backs. Even a very good shop whose come back rate is low benefits, as they need only compete on hourly rate with the bad ones, and can pocket their improved efficiency (to which they are entitled).

 

[backinblue]

I think the real point here is that if the owner decided he couldn't or didn't want to do the job and hired someone to do it, is $500 reasonable? In my mind it is. Just like an auto mechanic charging 120/hr. You can't say that is ridiculous because he is only being paid 30/hr. There is a lot of overhead that is included in that rate. The marina where I pay for service, is a modest family business. They are hands-on and not driving to the yard in a Rolls-Royce. Yet people will complain about labor rates and fuel prices and slip fees for their expensive toys that they are lucky enough to enjoy, without thinking about what it takes to run a profitable marina. Nuff said.

 

[Simi 60]

Part of the DIY Vs boatyard problem is with supposedly skilled technicians that are not so skilled.

I have no issue with this if they charge accordingly
Charging accordingly is minimum wage

The other part of the problem is with US, the recreational boating community.

In general WE are cheapskates and do not want to pay for the actual labor to do work on our boats.

Lets pick a job and dissect it to demonstrate the problem.

snipped
The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

Yep, thats how some do it and I avoid them like the plague if I can

The other side of the coin...
The sparky I got to wire up our house bank, inverter charger, MPPT and solar panels charged me from the time he stepped on board until the time he stepped off and @ $50/hour
He gave me the option of sourcing my own parts, easier for him and cheaper for me.

Guys who do my general repair, bottom and paint work are the same charging at $50 for the boss and $35 for the help.
If he buys anything he produces receipts with no add ons.

Some people simply aren't as rapey as others

 

[lwarden]

Part of the DIY Vs boatyard problem is with supposedly skilled technicians that are not so skilled.

The other part of the problem is with US, the recreational boating community.

In general WE are cheapskates and do not want to pay for the actual labor to do work on our boats.

Lets pick a job and dissect it to demonstrate the problem.

Lets pick a easy job. How about fixing a defective water tank level gauge on my Bayliner 4788. This one is pretty familiar to me.

So... We call the boat yard down the road and they agree to send a tech over. Lets go over the labor hours needed to do this one little job.

09:00 Tech leaves the shop (the labor clock is now ticking.
9:15 he gets parked
9:30 he finds the boat, and the hidden key and gets onboard.
9:45 He has determined that yes the gauge is not working
10:15 he has found the sender under the main berth after removing the mattress, and the owners gear in the compartment, and has opened up the access panel.
10:45 He has diagnosed that the tank sender is defective and called the shop for a replacement, yes they have one of that model.
11:15 he is back at the boat with the new sender
11:45 The new sender is installed and tested.
12:15 he has put back the mattress, all the owners stuff, tidied up his mess and is leaving the boat.
12:30 He is back at the shop
12:45 he has billed out the customer and is ready for his next job. He rounds down the labor bill to 3.5 hours at $115 per hour.

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

This is a good example of something simple which could easily be done DIY, and in fact just did this several months ago on my boat.

Here is how it went:
Freshwater tank gauge reading empty regardless of the water level.


1. Pull sensor, time taken: 10 minutes

2.Test sensor, swings full scale when arm is moved, float appears to be sunk.
Time taken: 5 minutes

3. Look on internet and find float material and order.
Time taken: 15 minutes, cost for part shipped is $10.

4. Install new float on sensor and seal with epoxy so it can't adsorb water. Time taken: 15 minutes.

5. Reinstall in tank and test (now works)
Time taken: 10 minutes

Total time: 55 minutes and better than the original version. I would guess it would take an hour of dealing back and forth with the yard and I would still have a $500 bill.

These sorts of little fixes happen all the time and it's just way easier to do them myself. And as I mentioned earlier, there is usually an improvement which can be made along the way that a yard mechanic isn't going to make.

 

[kthoennes]

...

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

...

15% for a parts markup? I wish. I think a much more common markup is about 50%, sometimes more.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Ksanders example is a perfect example of why some of us are DIY for simple jobs, and some not. 3.5 hrs for that job as Ksanders describes it is reasonable. I say that because we have to expect to pay for all of the time the tech has on the job that keeps him from any other jobs. Not just the time he's turning wrenches on the boat. But for me $500 is more than reason enough to do it myself.

The kind of thing that makes me a confirmed DIYer is when I hire a yard to do a big job. The final bill comes in at over 4X the estimate. And they still didn't get it working right. The spent days chasing the wrong problem because they didn't know what the phuck they were doing. I finally gave up and hired yard #2, supposed experts. They fumbled around for half a day and said it would take 2 to 4 days to deal with it. And they wouldn't get to it for months.

I gave up on both yards, called the manufacturer for help. It was diagnosed and i had the faulty components removed in half a day. $500 in parts and an hour more of my time and it's up and running.

Why should I pay high priced techs to fumble around like that?

 

[ksanders]

Ksanders example is a perfect example of why some of us are DIY for simple jobs, and some not. 3.5 hrs for that job as Ksanders describes it is reasonable. I say that because we have to expect to pay for all of the time the tech has on the job that keeps him from any other jobs. Not just the time he's turning wrenches on the boat. But for me $500 is more than reason enough to do it myself.

The kind of thing that makes me a confirmed DIYer is when I hire a yard to do a big job. The final bill comes in at over 4X the estimate. And they still didn't get it working right. The spent days chasing the wrong problem because they didn't know what the phuck they were doing. I finally gave up and hired yard #2, supposed experts. They fumbled around for half a day and said it would take 2 to 4 days to deal with it. And they wouldn't get to it for months.

I gave up on both yards, called the manufacturer for help. It was diagnosed and i had the faulty components removed in half a day. $500 in parts and an hour more of my time and it's up and running.

Why should I pay high priced techs to fumble around like that?

The bolded part is where most folks do not understand.

Any time the tech cannot be billing someone else he is billing you. Time to figure out what is really wrong. Time to run and get the part. Time to clean up afterward.

We as boaters only tend to think of the time it took us to actually do the job, not all the time it took us to do all aspects of the job.

Some say $115 an hour is highway robbery. My local auto shop has posted $140 an hour right on the wall.

My last job where I was contracting out was at $150 an hour and that was a bunch of years ago, and I’m just a tech. A different kind of tech from a marine one, but a tech all the same.

 

[mvweebles]

Left side of split screen picture is typical DIY work. I'm sorry gents, I'm sure many of you do crackerjack work. But a LOT of older boats I've been aboard show like junk because of DIY work (fourth picture). It takes some skill and plenty of time to do installations total sano.

Some of the nicest installs I've ever seen are DIY by a skilled and patient owner. But vast majority of DIY installs are junk and detract from the value of the boat. Not saying professionals are always good, but they usually put-class DIY folks by a long shot. I'll go out on a limb and say the percentage of professionals who are bad are roughly similar to DIY who are good.

Problem often is that an owner will get a bid for something - maybe rewire their 40-foot boat for $15k (a good price by the way) . They are shocked and say they could do it the self for half that. Indeed they can. They've never heard of a backplane (third picture) and end up with a junk install.

We've all seem it. Some of us have done it (I'm raising my hand here). Let's give the pros their due. It takes a while to do quality work.

Peter

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mv. Seems the "professional" job is lacking as well IMO. Yep. It's neat BUT no color coding/labeling of wires and with the wire tie bundling, impossible to trace easily.
At least with the "dog's breakfast" you can trace wiring.

 

[psneeld]

In all fairness.... a boat evolving from years of DIY work is going to look different than a professionally done refit. Pro work that is just adding part of a system or individual appliance, might look not much different that what was there to begin with.



If that DIY owner took it down to scratch like many pro refits...it might come a lot closer in looks.


A lot is what you start.... with versus starting fresh or with a first rate layout to begin with.

 

[SteveK]

He paid $60 for the sender, adds 15% profit for a parts price of $70

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

The owner goes on his favorite forum and complains that he just paid $500 to get a tank sender replaced that he could have done in a half an hour.

BTW, It did take the tech 1/2 hour to replace the sender. And it would take at least 3.5 hours for me to DIY. So I have saved $430, that is why I DIY, any questions?

Meanwhile, back at the shop the tech is telling the other tech. So I just earned $160 in wages and the shop made $170 labor and $10 markup. Is that fair?

 

[ksanders]

BTW, It did take the tech 1/2 hour to replace the sender. And it would take at least 3.5 hours for me to DIY. So I have saved $430, that is why I DIY, any questions?

Meanwhile, back at the shop the tech is telling the other tech. So I just earned $160 in wages and the shop made $170 labor and $10 markup. Is that fair?

Fair or not that is life.

I have employees and know what it costs to have them. Then the shop has to buy truck, tools, etc...

Nobody is getting rich at $115 an hour.

 

[SteveK]

Fair or not that is life.

I have employees and know what it costs to have them. Then the shop has to buy truck, tools, etc...

Nobody is getting rich at $115 an hour.

You know I did say one employee talking to another. I understand the matrix.

 

[mvweebles]

No disrespect intended, but I have no doubt a large percentage of posters in a forum like TF are DIY maintenance types. I do doubt the quality and/or completeness of the work of this majority just because it does not correspond with many years of stepping aboard boats, mine included. Nothing untoward, just saying that many people simply don't know what they don't know. It takes time, skill, knowledge, tools, and supplies to do a good job. Its irritating as hell to hire a professional only to learn they're deficient in one or more of these key areas. But many DIY folks hold themselves to a much lower standard and accept a lessor outcome. That said, the best maintained boats are fastidious owners.

Will a well maintained boat recoup its cost at resale? Hell no!!! Will it fetch a premium and sell faster? Hell yes!!!

Decision matrix is first determine level of maintenance you desire. Second, find the right technician and decide whether you (DIY) are the right person for the job. Or just the cheapest labor so therefore you're okay with lowering the bar.

Peter

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ks. "Nobody is getting rich at $115 an hour." I fully agree and understand the costs of maintaining a business. The $115/hr rate is NOT the issue, at least in MY case. The slipshod attitude and sub-par work that one pays $115/hr for IS the issue.


For a good number of tradesmen, working for a company is preferable due to little to no overhead, minimal paperwork and billing tasks and a regular paycheck with regular hours. Possibly a health plan, as well. BIG incentives.

Edit: Depending on the company, lack of accountability for a job poorly done allows sub standard "technicians" to stay employed.




I remember one guy, in my own field, who started his own business after working for a big company. I spoke to him about 2 years after he went solo. He said it was the worst move he'd made. He was very good at his trade but he spent 50% of his time keeping the business going (expenses/paperwork/maintenance etc.) and only 50% doing what he was best at and enjoyed. This was before the computer age so everything was snail mail and hard copies. NO e-trade. I expect it's a LOT easier in that respect now BUT still has to be done by an independent tradesman.


Bottom line is lack of pride of workmanship and customers who accept less than good work because they have no other option.

 

[ranger58sb]

The total bill is $472.50 plus state tax of 6% making a total of $500.85

And portions of that total have to go for plant, office employees, utilities, vehicles (and their maintenance), maybe health care and retirement benefits, compliance, etc.

-Chris

 

[gt7834a]

It is funny. I do all my boat maintenance but I pretty much never touch my car.
My boats are all trainable so nothing super complicated. By the time I hook up the trailer and take it to the mechanic I can usually have the work already done. Plus I want to learn as much about the boat as possible for when I eventually move aboard and need to be able to do my own work in remote locations.

 

[FWT]

Food cost in restaurants is maybe a quarter or third of total cost. A lot of what you are paying for is rent on the table. Profit comes from renting the table as many times a day as they can.

Boatyards sit on seriously valuable real estate that has to be paid for. Service costs include that rent.

 

[backinblue]

Food cost in restaurants is maybe a quarter or third of total cost. A lot of what you are paying for is rent on the table. Profit comes from renting the table as many times a day as they can.

Boatyards sit on seriously valuable real estate that has to be paid for. Service costs include that rent.

Same reason fuel is more expensive than at the corner convenience store!