DIY Maintenance

[backinblue]

10-40 or 20-50 sync and why.
Why use sync in an engine designed for single weight dino 40w

I'm sorry, I was talking cars not boats regarding the oil. The thread kind of drifted off track a bit when the discussion was about Jiffy Lube vs. change you own oil as well as whether you DIY for both boat and car. For my boat diesel, I use what's recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[rslifkin]

Many reports that premium gas is actually worse for gas mileage.

I wondered till I ran it a couple of times and got about a MPG less in my V10 motorhome.

A 10-12% decrease.

It depends on the vehicle. Some get better mpg on premium, some don't. Usually anything that just says 87 won't benefit from premium, but stuff that requires 87 and recommends higher often will (but you have to try to know for sure).



If it was tuned for 87, feeding it premium usually results in the same or worse mpg. If it's tuned for higher octane and old enough not to have a knock sensor, low octane will cause damage. If it's got a knock sensor, it'll pull timing to run safely on 87. Depending on how aggressive the tune is and how it's being driven, that may cause a bit less power, or some weird flat spots in throttle response. And with that, usually a bit lower mpg.

 

[backinblue]

Agreed, similar to my explanation above. Most modern vehicles will run well on any octane but will run best at the octane it was designed for and recommended by the manufacturer. Another misconception is that higher octanes contain more detergents and result in a cleaner engine. Again, follow the manual.

 

[SteveK]

It depends on the vehicle. Some get better mpg on premium, some don't. Usually anything that just says 87 won't benefit from premium, but stuff that requires 87 and recommends higher often will (but you have to try to know for sure).



If it was tuned for 87, feeding it premium usually results in the same or worse mpg. If it's tuned for higher octane and old enough not to have a knock sensor, low octane will cause damage. If it's got a knock sensor, it'll pull timing to run safely on 87. Depending on how aggressive the tune is and how it's being driven, that may cause a bit less power, or some weird flat spots in throttle response. And with that, usually a bit lower mpg.

^^^that.
Back when there were points and timing was adjusting the distributor, I would add about 5* timing and gain from using premium.
My current car has electronic ignition that learns and advances timing with premium. I see and feel the benefits.
My bike runs off a tuning map for which I have the tuner and have found again about 5* advance with premium makes a night/day difference two up riding uphill accelerating away from the same stock bike of my friend.
Higher octane does not produce more power, it eliminates the loss of power from pre detonation which in turn retards the timing, which drops performance.
So, sorry if I do not accept a simple it's a waste of money comment.

 

[backinblue]

You are correct. It's not a waste of money if your engine can benefit from it as you are doing with timing advances. Higher performance cars will benefit because they are designed for it, but will retard timing if lower octane is used. It's not like they are gaining from the higher octane, but more that they are losing when using lower. It IS a waste of money to put higher octane gas in a stock engine that is designed and tuned to run on 87.

 

[SteveK]

OK, we can now return to the regular scheduled topic

 

[backinblue]

Choosing what gas or oil to use in your engine is not that far off topic! All good information, but sorry for the detour.

 

[rslifkin]

By the same logic octane wise, my gas boat engines spec a minimum octane of 86. Fuel docks typically have 89 octane anywhere I've seen, so I keep the ignition timing set 1 - 2 degrees above spec to hopefully get a little better fuel economy, as the spec is pretty conservative (and it's just a linear curve, so nowhere near enough advance at low rpm / light load conditions). I do carry a timing light just in case I ever had to fill the tanks with 87 and could pull the timing back to stock.

 

[koliver]

Choosing what gas or oil to use in your engine is not that far off topic! All good information, but sorry for the detour.

Staying on the detour for a minute:

All 3 of my cars say on the gas cap to use premium. I do.
All of my other gas engines say nothing at all. I used to use off road gas, available at a lower price locally, that is sold as mid-grade, 89 octane. I don't any more, as anything but premium and even some premium, contain ethanol. Ethanol has caused varnishing of the carburetors in my outboards, lawn mowers, etc. Premium doesn't. I haven't kept records of fuel consumption in those engines, but if they use as much premium as mid I would be surprised, and the extra cost of the occasional can of Seafoam when using less than premium more than eats up any potential saving on the cheaper off road gas.

I too have kept detailed economy records in my cars. I once got a full tank of E10 gas in my 2005 Volvo "use premium gas" and my fuel economy suffered by 20%. Lesson learned.

 

[psneeld]

https://blog.amsoil.com/how-to-fight-ethanol-problems-in-small-engines/

"Ethanol is an excellent solvent and drying agent that dissolves old gum and varnish deposits from the gas tank and fuel lines."

Cleaned up the varnish in the fuel tanks of my assistance towboat in just a year or two.

 

[backinblue]

https://blog.amsoil.com/how-to-fight-ethanol-problems-in-small-engines/

"Ethanol is an excellent solvent and drying agent that dissolves old gum and varnish deposits from the gas tank and fuel lines."

Cleaned up the varnish in the fuel tanks of my assistance towboat in just a year or two.

Hi PSNEELD,

I'm confused. Are you pro or against ethanol? I used nothing but ethanol-free gas in my small outboard but it still didn't prevent carb problems, hence my change to electric, discussed in another thread.

 

[psneeld]

I am neither....and most people don't know much about ethanol gas....it gets blamed and mistrusted far more than it needs to be. NJ has been using it exclusively for a decade or so.... and people there mostly figured out how to live with it.

I wish it wasn't around, but it is far from anything but a mild nuisance if you learn about it.

As an assistance tower, I studied it and witnessed truths and myths quite a bit...along with my own experiences.

 

[backinblue]

Staying on the detour for a minute:

All 3 of my cars say on the gas cap to use premium. I do.
All of my other gas engines say nothing at all. I used to use off road gas, available at a lower price locally, that is sold as mid-grade, 89 octane. I don't any more, as anything but premium and even some premium, contain ethanol. Ethanol has caused varnishing of the carburetors in my outboards, lawn mowers, etc. Premium doesn't. I haven't kept records of fuel consumption in those engines, but if they use as much premium as mid I would be surprised, and the extra cost of the occasional can of Seafoam when using less than premium more than eats up any potential saving on the cheaper off road gas.

I too have kept detailed economy records in my cars. I once got a full tank of E10 gas in my 2005 Volvo "use premium gas" and my fuel economy suffered by 20%. Lesson learned.

If your cars are spec'd for premium, that's all you should use, it will pay for itself. Ethanol in gas is another topic. For any small engine that gets used infrequently, like a snowblower, if you can't get ethanol-free gas, you should at least treat it with a fuel stabilizer. Home Depot, etc, sells insanely expensive ethanol-free gas, but for something like a chainsaw where maybe you only use it once or twice a year, and about a quart of fuel in a season, it may be worth the price. It is for me.

 

[Exctyengr]

As a pilot and a certified aircraft mechanic (A&P/IA) I find this thread interesting. Myself and other pilot/mechanics believe that a pilot who is knowledgeable about aircraft maintenance and repair are better equipped to explain to the mechanic what's wrong. Concurrently a mechanic who is also a pilot is better equipped to diagnose an issue in the air. Me, I enjoy a moderate amount of boat work, and do as much as I can unless; (1) It's too technical beyond my skills, (2) I don't have the tools, or (3) it's too big and heavy.

 

[psneeld]

Though there have been too many aircraft accidents where pilots got bogged down in diagnosing problems instead of flying the plane/helicopter.

But I do agree operators should understand more than just the operators manual.

 

[Northern Spy]

Me, I enjoy a moderate amount of boat work, and do as much as I can unless; (1) It's too technical beyond my skills, (2) I don't have the tools, or (3) it's too big and heavy.

I'm with you, except for I will often buy the tools if I don't have them. Can't think of any tool purchase I regret purchasing and/or haven't used again. Even specialized tools. Heck, sometimes I will buy used tools I see advertised or tools on sale in anticipation of an upcoming project.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm with you, except for I will often buy the tools if I don't have them. Can't think of any tool purchase I regret purchasing and/or haven't used again. Even specialized tools. Heck, sometimes I will buy used tools I see advertised or tools on sale in anticipation of an upcoming project.

I often buy specialized tools for one-off projects as well. But every once in a while, the tool is either something big and impractical and I just don't have a place for it, or the tool is expensive enough that I could pay someone to do the job 3 or 4 times for the cost of the tool.

 

[backinblue]

I'm glad everyone is enjoying my thread, even if you don't always agree, although I know I am right! lol. Good discussions all around!

 

[backinblue]

I agree about purchasing tools. Sometimes I buy tools and learning to use them teaches or improves skills I didn't really have before.

 

[rolomart3]

I agree 100% with Boathealer. My first experience with a bostyard worker revealed that I had to pay for 10 minute pit stops (about 18 bucks) and the time for the mechanic to read the diesel manual. Oh did I tell you about the yard mechanic that forgot to change those pesky gasket seals in the fuel filters. I know because the new gaskets were still in their unopened plastic bags. Not replacing the gaskets results in air leaks in the fuel lines that lead to an engine shutdown.

 

[markbarendt]

"I think the most important thing for one to learn is what they should do themselves and what they should pay to get done. Pay for too much and it makes affording boating difficult for some. Try to do too much can make boating miserable. Just find the balance that is appropriate for you."


I think the above quote "hits the nail on the head".
Personally, I do most of the "maintenance" on my boat myself. I actually enjoy it (most of the time ).

I do hire out most electrical work, and anything that I feel is beyond my knowledge and/or abilities. For some items, I have hired someone to do the job (the first time), and insisted on them explaining the work to me for future knowledge. I usually research the job before hand, so I have a decent idea of what should be done before the work starts (at least in general terms). I never leave a "tradesman" to just "work on my boat" without me being there to "oversee" the work. The one time I left the yard to do the work without my "oversight", I had a bad experience!!

Great quote.

It is very much situational for everyone I think.

Your idea of hiring work done the first time is a good one, I’ve used that idea all over in my life. It’s not just about boat mechanics, it’s for example how I learned to do my taxes whenever there’s been a big change in life situation.

With my refit work right now I’m hiring out things like fiberglassing and doing my own electrical and mechanical work. My logic here is based in how I want to use my boat. I see the wilds of BC and AK and cruising down to the Sea of Cortez and ... in my future. I want to understand and be able to deal with all the basic needs of operating the boat in the wilds, but I haven’t got the time to learn and do the fiberglass work needed this year.

If all I was just planning was weekends fishing and anchoring for the night on the Columbia River my choices might be very different.

I have a buddy at work that is working toward building a 29’ wooden boat from scratch at home...

 

[Portage_Bay]

I agree 100% with Boathealer. My first experience with a bostyard worker revealed that I had to pay for 10 minute pit stops (about 18 bucks) and the time for the mechanic to read the diesel manual. Oh did I tell you about the yard mechanic that forgot to change those pesky gasket seals in the fuel filters. I know because the new gaskets were still in their unopened plastic bags. Not replacing the gaskets results in air leaks in the fuel lines that lead to an engine shutdown.

Yup, seen that one too.

 

[BrianSmith]

Yep. I like doing my own work, and it saves money, BUT.... I really do it because I have seen the work "professsionals" do. I have seen some real CRAP from some "high-end" yards....I really would have loved to ask the "technician" - "Would you do that on your own boat? "

I want things done right, not just so they can get the next boat in...

Last yard I was at for bottom paint ("how hard can it be?") painted over my thruster prop zincs - two coats for safety.

Exactly! (Plus what another poster said about the value of really understanding how a system works.)

 

[Cartouche]

I find it interesting that many boat owners insist on doing all their own maintenance. There is some value in knowing the ins and outs of your boat systems, but on the other hand I have also heard that some buyers shun boats that have not been professionally maintained. My question is what are the pros and cons of DIY? Is DIY mainly a matter of cost or is it more about being able to do repairs underway when needed? Regarding cost, would a professionally maintained boat with records demand a higher price that would offset the cost of paying for that maintenance? Some owners take on the most difficult tasks, and yet take their cars for an oil change. Thoughts?

Professionally maintained, sorry but that always makes me smile have you ever watched a Marina winterize a boat, and fresh water system, I will tell you not very professional, most still use plumbing ant freeze for the engine rather than proper Green -100C it is all based on cost, they would never empty clean and dry a sump, Most do Oil changes during the spring and summer not because it is right but because it fits with their schedules. I am sorry but a bopat maintained by a learned owner is a far better buy than a Marina 'Professionally maintained' boat. When we bought our boat i found that Ours was missing all 4 of the set screws holding the shaft to the coupler I don't think that happened in one season. Multiple Hose clamps that were looses a cracked fresh water intake hose, and a Generator strainer that the set screw had not been put into the bottom, as well as a frozen and disgusting sump. and 1 Bilge pump that was not working and another that had a bad float. Sorry just makes me laugh how some pay big bucks to Marinas for simple tasks that are not done properly.

 

[tugboat]

When it comes to "pro repairs" trust but verify. I have had several " Pro jobs" on used boats I have purchased. Some were on the edge of being dangerous. Perhaps some were do to pressure from the seller. Even a good marine survey will not spot everything.

 

[DDW]

Even a good marine survey will not spot everything.

"Professional" surveyors are part of that problem. The chances of getting a good one randomly picked is about the same as getting a good mechanic. Of all the surveys I've had done, only one was as knowledgable as me. Some of the others were horrifyingly incorrect in many of their observations and conclusions. The rest were effectively a no-op.

 

[moparharn]

As a person who has been doing good bit of searching I can tell you what I care most about. I want an owner who LOVES his boat and it shows. How does it show? First, and absolutely the most important to me is a spotless and organized engine room. Anyone who spends enough time to keep their engine room spotless is going to know more about his boat regardless of who maintains it. This kind of owner is also looking for every kind of situation that will degrade his boat such as water intrusion. The hard work is often in the engine room. In the age of boats I am looking at (older) when I see a spotless engine room I an VERY impressed. This does not mean there won't be problems. It just means that somebody cares about their boat. If they care they won't do crappy work themselves, or let someone else do crappy work. Vigilant. Bill

 

[psneeld]

Sorta like only clean, well dressed people care about themselves.

 

[moparharn]

Really? Kind of a stretch don't you think. A well kept boat is indicative of an owner who is putting in the work. How you go social justice on this is beyond me.

Sorta like only clean, well dressed people care about themselves.

 

[backinblue]

I agree about looking at a boat and telling whether the owner loved it or not. I was in the market for about 2 years. Saw some terrible boats, one that was actually dripping water inside the cabin ceiling from melting snow as I looked at it. Surveyors mostly mean well I think, but can miss some things. The most major thing missed on my boat was a cracked and leaking holding tank which I since replaced. There were also bad house batteries, not noticed until the boat was unplugged for a week (post survey). Non working shower sump pump that was never checked. etc.... I think most used boats take at least a season to get everything right if you are the type of owner that is a perfectionist. I bought 1 boat new out of the 4 that I have owned. After about 14 years, when I sold it the buyer said it looked brand new and gave me my asking price even though I would have accepted less.