Finally got the new big lithium batteries

[SteveK]

Slowmo,
Your link did not specificaly quote the ABYC E-13. Just talks about it.
This link does quote it. I especially like the final thought,

Final thoughts
Overall, I believe LiFePO4 is safer than the lead-acid based batteries we’ve been installing in boats for many decades. LiFePO4 batteries have safety mechanisms in place to shut themselves down if they exit their SOE. Lead Acid batteries don’t. The failures I’ve seen with LiFePO4 batteries are more graceful than the failures with FLA. But, the batteries do store a tremendous amount of energy. Without proper installation and care there is an inherent danger things can wrong with all that energy. Following E-13’s guidance will help ensure safety. I’m also hopeful that E-13’s existence will help with the rocky landscape of insurance companies and lithium batteries on boats.

 

[twistedtree]

With all the discussion about installing and charging LiFePO4 batteries, I haven't see any reference to the new ABYC E-13 standard that is now in effect. The standard puts requirements on both battery manufactures and installation. Those thinking of installing should probably make themselves familiar with this standard. There are several articles that address this, the one below is the BoatUS
article.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advic...2023/february/the-latest-on-lithium-batteries

Some insurers apparently have higher premims for boats wtih Li based batteries. However now that ABYC E-13 requirements are published I'd expect this to go away provided installations comply with the ABYC standard.

One of the most important things to recognize is that Li batteries are not just a 'drop in' like moving from flooded to AGM. ABYC E13 now provides template on how to do this properly so as to reap the benefits without introducing additional risk. Those who believe LiFePO4 has eliminated the fire risks may not understand that the risk is due to the Li itself. Risk=probability x severity. In the case of Li Ion batteries it is the severity of fires that is the concern. ABYC E13 minimizes the probability side (via battery management, requirements on the battery manufacturers, and installation) since the severity aspect can't be eliminated as long as Li is used.

What is the fundamental LI fire risk in a lithium-ion battery? LI is a fire risk in its metal form, however there is no LI metal in a lithium ion battery. It's like an H2 molecule that is flammable, but an H2O molecule that isn't, even though both contain hydrogen atoms.

 

[Don L]

That sounds nice. But I don't feel means anything. Following the lithium guidelines is harder that following other battery installation unless you are mistaking suggestions from requirements.

 

[slowgoesit]

With all the discussion about installing and charging LiFePO4 batteries, I haven't see any reference to the new ABYC E-13 standard that is now in effect. The standard puts requirements on both battery manufactures and installation. Those thinking of installing should probably make themselves familiar with this standard. There are several articles that address this, the one below is the BoatUS
article.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advic...2023/february/the-latest-on-lithium-batteries

Some insurers apparently have higher premims for boats wtih Li based batteries. However now that ABYC E-13 requirements are published I'd expect this to go away provided installations comply with the ABYC standard.

One of the most important things to recognize is that Li batteries are not just a 'drop in' like moving from flooded to AGM. ABYC E13 now provides template on how to do this properly so as to reap the benefits without introducing additional risk. Those who believe LiFePO4 has eliminated the fire risks may not understand that the risk is due to the Li itself. Risk=probability x severity. In the case of Li Ion batteries it is the severity of fires that is the concern. ABYC E13 minimizes the probability side (via battery management, requirements on the battery manufacturers, and installation) since the severity aspect can't be eliminated as long as Li is used.

I realize that many people will see this post as splitting hairs, but it is important to remember that ABYC E-13 is NOT a "requirement", but rather a "recommendation" unless mandated by a gov't body, or your insurance company.

ABYC E-13 is a good start, but is also, by no means all inclusive.
That being said, using good recommendations, common sense, and a lot of research, our LiFePO4 installation, which we did ourselves, predates publication of ABYC E-13, yet still is in accordance with all the E-13 recommendations.

 

[Don L]

That sounds nice. But I don't feel means anything. Following the lithium guidelines is NOT harder that following other battery installation unless you are mistaking suggestions from requirements.

I fixed what I met to write, sorry for the delay and possible confusion

 

[Simi 60]

I realize that many people will see this post as splitting hairs, but it is important to remember that ABYC E-13 is NOT a "requirement", but rather a "recommendation" unless mandated by a gov't body, or your insurance company.

And then there's the rest of the world who wouldn't know what abyc is.

 

[Barking Sands]

That's nicely done.


It's curious to see the different currents reported by the Epoch and the Shunt. Shouldn't they be the same?

So it appears the Epoch shows the amp draw from a single battery (whichever you have pulled up) and of course the Victron shunt shows total draw. At times they agree and at other times there is still a disparity. For now I will stick with the Victron Shunt as battery monitor. I ran my portable AC unit for around 4+ hours yesterday in the garage to pull the batteries down to a mid range SOC. It was drawing between 70 and 75 amps. I started with 100% on both the battery app for the Epoch and 100% on the Shunt (after programming for 600AH of course) , again there was a disparity of a few % over that range. The Epoch reported around 67% remaining and the Shunt monitor reported around 64%.

For right now I am sticking with the Victron for the monitor since it simplifies everything. I am going to the boat today and I will bring home my DC clamp meter to help check which is more accurate. I have a feeling the Victron is more precise but I need to confirm.

I also just received the Victron MK3 USB interface to help make setting all charge parameters easier. I love this Victron stuff but it can be a chore getting where you need to go. It appears there are settings you can access using the MK3 and a laptop that you can not get to with the app. And it appears there are settings in the app that I cant find on the MK3. I can not find tail current on the MK3 and laptop but its on my phone app.

Epoch recommends the following for voltage selections:
Bulk 14.4
Absorption 14.4
Float 13.8

Again..I love this Victron stuff but I had to get a notepad out, do a ton of research and figure everything out line by line and setting by setting. Or at the very least reconfirm my assumed understanding
But it appears you can save your settings in a file on the laptop and if you ever have to reset to defaults you can load them back using the file. But even still, I believe I will make a cheat sheet and laminate it and attach it to the Multiplus for future use. There are so many details to go through and when they are set and some time passes its clear you are likely to not remember them all in the future.

I am still waiting on a manual from Epoch to see if there are additional features. They are all at Annapolis currently and unfortunately the online manuals have not made it to the new website yet.

If any of you Victron/lithium battery users have a file saved and would like to share it I would love to have it to compare notes.

 

[SteveK]

I have separate BMS, Inverter and Shunt monitors. While similiar and same at times I wonder why they are not always the same. When fully charged BMS & Shunt they both show 100% SOC and 800Ah, same 13.5v on all three. The float charge A & V from the inverter monitor is usually different as the charger is powering items directly and not into and out through shunt.
I already had the shunt but knowing this would not get one when a BMS monitor is available. I have 8-100Ah Renogy that communicate through ethernet cable to each other and the monitor, no need for a shunt.

 

[Barking Sands]

I have separate BMS, Inverter and Shunt monitors. While similiar and same at times I wonder why they are not always the same. When fully charged BMS & Shunt they both show 100% SOC and 800Ah, same 13.5v on all three. The float charge A & V from the inverter monitor is usually different as the charger is powering items directly and not into and out through shunt.
I already had the shunt but knowing this would not get one when a BMS monitor is available. I have 8-100Ah Renogy that communicate through ethernet cable to each other and the monitor, no need for a shunt.

On my way out the door i checked the system again and the SOC as reported by the shunt was off. The Epoch was likely accurate. Epoch still reported what I ended the day at yesterday, 64%. The Victron shunt was obviously misreporting a very high 90%. Obviously wrong. Ill have to dive in more. I really havent properly set the shunt, but both shunt and Epoch read 100% before starting the battery only/inverter test.

Ill keep fine tuning and rechecking settings. Im just getting my hands around it.

 

[Anthonywill3]

Thanks for sharing, looking at these exact batteries, but out of stock till Dec blah. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to more of the Victron integration.

 

[Barking Sands]

Thanks for sharing, looking at these exact batteries, but out of stock till Dec blah. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to more of the Victron integration.

Yes...this batch got sold quickly.
Also dont forget the have a plastic case Marine 300ah and 460ah battery coming in December as well. They are supposed to be even more feature rich. Victron comm and N2k ports as well as other features.

 

[rslifkin]

Yes...this batch got sold quickly.
Also dont forget the have a plastic case Marine 300ah and 460ah battery coming in December as well. They are supposed to be even more feature rich. Victron comm and N2k ports as well as other features.

The plastic case 460ah is listed on the site. It gives the specs for both sizes in the manual, and the 300ah version is a bit larger than the 300ah "essentials V2" version. The 460ah is even bigger, as expected. Footprint wise, neither of those is as good in my opinion (I'd have a hard time fitting 2 of the 460s where I can fit 3 of the metal case 300s).

 

[mvweebles]

460 Ah for $2k. IP67 rated. Exception of max 300a discharge current, it's a beast. 100 lbs could be a handful. But only have to do it once.

https://www.epochbatteries.com/prod...4-battery-ip67-heated-bluetooth-victron-comms

Peter

 

[Barking Sands]

The plastic case 460ah is listed on the site. It gives the specs for both sizes in the manual, and the 300ah version is a bit larger than the 300ah "essentials V2" version. The 460ah is even bigger, as expected. Footprint wise, neither of those is as good in my opinion (I'd have a hard time fitting 2 of the 460s where I can fit 3 of the metal case 300s).

Yes..I am quite happy with the 300ahV2. This version also has staggaring charge acceptance rates and discharge rates. Even more than the 460ah.

Honestly, even the 300ah Essential non victron would suit me fine. I love fancy stuff and the victron integration certainly is fancy, but I dont know that it will add much value or utility over the long term. Just having the app to see the detailed battery stats is plenty to see if something is out of whack.

 

[Barking Sands]

460 Ah for $2k. IP67 rated. Exception of max 300a discharge current, it's a beast. 100 lbs could be a handful. But only have to do it once.

https://www.epochbatteries.com/prod...4-battery-ip67-heated-bluetooth-victron-comms

Peter

One thing I do like about that one over the 300ah version I have is the remote on off switch that is lighted when on.

One thing I need to give feedback to Epoch on, or modify myself, is that when the batteries are paralled, turning one on also turns on the others in parallel. I suppose when one is turned on it supplies power to all BMSs in the string. I might want to be able to power up or shut down each individually in case of failure. I suppose some type of isolator might do that. But it seems it could be done internally too.

 

[Barking Sands]

That's nicely done.


It's curious to see the different currents reported by the Epoch and the Shunt. Shouldn't they be the same?

Ok, finally brought the DC current meter home. Niether match the meter perfectly. It seems the Epoch is more accurate though.

One thing I noticed is the Epoch data will only display one battery at a time. So you would think the Epoch reading would be half the value the shunt shows. But this is not the case. Using the clamp meter at each battery I then noted a different reading at each battery. I should have expected that because I am using spare cables to cobble together this bench test set up. One set of cables off the bus bar are about 2 feet 4/0 cable. The other cable is also 4/0 but about 10 feet. There is nearly a 2.5 amp split charging the batteries at a current limit of 30 amps coming out of the Multiplus. I am getting about 13.5 amps into one battery and about 16.5 amps going into the battery with short cables. Something we have discussed here many times but forgot about since I was so focused on all the settings and jargon.

So..I suppose shunt accuracy at this level is not very precise.