Flags

[psneeld]

Straight from a USCG website

Vessel Flag: You may search for a vessel by selecting the flag (ensign) the vessel flies. Most are based on the
traditional state flag, but with notable stylistic modifications.

Flags are very important at sea, where they can mean the difference between life and death,
and consequently the rules and regulations for the flying of flags are strictly enforced.

Ensigns are national maritime flags flown by ships, at the stern, from a gaff, or from the yard-arm.
In some countries (e.g., the United Kingdom, Italy, Russia or Australia) there are distinct naval and
merchant ensigns, while in other countries (e.g., United States or France) the merchant and naval
ensigns are identical to the national flag flown on land. Ensigns are usually required to be flown
when entering and leaving harbour, when sailing throughforeign waters, and when the ship is
signalled to do so by a warship.***********

Just FYI...as operations officer for a large USCG operational group on the East Coast and made many cutter patrols throughout the Caribbean...EVERY time we saw a vessel with a different "vessel flag" from the*homeport on the ster...we asked permission to board for a full vessel search "as a stateless vessel" versus just a*regular safety*boarding.

Not sure how it's done in the PNW...but try it that way out East and the law cares a bit more.***********************************


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 3rd of February 2012 01:14:10 PM

 

[Marin]

Well, they don't seem to care out here, and that is what they told me when I asked. On a few occasions when we were out on July14 flying the flags we fly, we've been passed by a USCG patrol vessel and they obviously had no concern about the flags we were flying at all as they did not alter their course or speed, and in fact paid us no attention at all.

I'm sure they would be very interested in a "flag anomoly" on the commercial tanker, container, bulk, etc. ships that come through Puget Sound but they don't seem to give a hoot what a recreational boater chooses to do flag-wise. Which is a very sensible atttitude as far as I'm concerned. In this regard, it would be much ado about nothing if they did, I think.

Perhaps the reason they say they have no concern is that we're talking about coastal waters and little*toy recreational boats, not "seas" and "ships."* I don't know.* All I know is they said they didn't care and that's good enough for me.

Also, as I have learned many times over all around the world, regulations are often enforced solely at the whim of the officer (or person in charge) at the time.* So maybe flags on recteational boats has been deemed a non-issue in this area by the powers that be.

They may do things differently on the east coast but I don't boat there*so*what they do back east is*of no relevance to me out here.


*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 3rd of February 2012 04:50:10 PM

 

[psneeld]

superdiver wrote:
i have never been stopped by the CG for a flag problem... Maybe cu the AK state flag is ok....

*the problem in many areas is*where a lot more criminal activity takes place or other international waters.* It's not the myriad of small and confusing or meaningless flags are being flown....it's*when a vessel flys a different country flag than it's homeported...basically you are not clearly stating your country so you are a stateless vessel under no countries protection.* But like I said the USCG isn't probably going to bother you in many cruising areas...but they could easily if they wanted to or all of a sudden your area becomes a hotbed of illegal activity.

Most of the time no big deal...but I have the utmost respect for my flag and IF I am going to fly it...it's gonna be done right.* Guess I just have that kind of pride.

 

[rochepoint]

Scott
Well said, I am proud to fly our flag and fly it right!

 

[FlyWright]

psneeld wrote:...but I have the utmost respect for my flag and IF I am going to fly it...it's gonna be done right.* Guess I just have that kind of pride.

X2

Like my Grandfather taught me, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.* Ignorance, or worse yet disregard, of proper flag protocol is no excuse.*

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:
Well, they don't seem to care out here, and that is what they told me when I asked. On a few occasions when we were out on July14 flying the flags we fly, we've been passed by a USCG patrol vessel and they obviously had no concern about the flags ...

*Marin, it's apparent:*the USCG*knows*you.

By the way, the USCG's boats pass by me multiple times in Mare Island Strait and Carquinez Strait on each outing, with no stronger a challenge than a*wave.* I partially attribute this to having a "lifesling" on my stern rail.* It is*a matter of appearing to "know what you're doing."* Just don't have some twenty-year-olds with cold beers in their hands on deck.* That's easy to avoid for a fat, old man like me.


-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 3rd of February 2012 07:57:00 PM

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:I have the utmost respect for my flag and IF I am going to fly it...it's gonna be done right.*

*No argument there.* When we fly the US flag we fly it right.

 

[psneeld]

Marin wrote:KJ wrote:
Inquiry* --* what flags (burgees, pennants, thongs,*etc.) do you fly when you are out and about on your boat?

*We fly the US flag from the peak of the gaff (boom), our club burgee from the jackstaff on the bow, and courtesy flags from the starboard spreader.* The attached spreader photo was taken when were took friends from France on a cruise through the Gulf Islands a few years ago.* We were in Canada, the wife is French, and the husband is Scottish.

When we are in Canada without international guests on board we fly the Canadian Maple Leaf on top and the "proper" Canadian flag, the Red Ensign, below that.

If we happen to be on the boat, in port or cruising, on July 14 we fly a full-size French flag from the peak of the gaff and a US courtesy flag from the starboard spreader.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 31st of January 2012 01:20:27 PM

*If you are a US flagged/documented vessel and you fly a US "courtesy flag" from the spreader...as far as*I am concerned...you are just pissing on it because it's NOT RIGHT according to*everything I know about maritime customs and flags.

But I know you don't care or think it's a big deal...you have already stated your opinion.

Everyone can do what they want...hey...why knot ..it is recreational boating...it's a free for all out there...


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 3rd of February 2012 08:25:21 PM

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:
*If you are a US flagged/documented vessel and you fly a US "courtesy flag" from the spreader...as far as*I am concerned...you are just pissing on it because it's NOT RIGHT according to*everything I know about maritime customs and flags.

So does that mean that all the sailboat owners I see around here who fly their US flags from their mast stays are "pissing" on the flag?* I wonder if they know that....

Anyway, like you said, it's not anything I view as important.* It's just a flag.* If people want*to get all emotional*about it--- by the way, did you know the design is based on*George Washington's family's coat of arms in England, so it's not even an American orginal---* I've got no problem with that at all.**I think*what*the flag stands for is important but I don't think the flag itself is important.* It's just a logo.* Like the apple on the top of my laptop.

And I don't believe the "rules" about where to fly it are actually laws.* They are just conventions that over time have become standards.* I don't believe it is illegal to fly an American flag any way or anywhere*you want to, just as it is not illegal to burn one.* (There have been numerous attempts to pass anti-desecration laws but every one of them has been struck down by the Supreme Court as violating the first amendment.)

So it would appear that*if we choose to fly a small American flag from our starboard spreader we are in violation of absolutely nothing.

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:
So it would appear that*if we choose to fly a small American flag from our starboard spreader we are in violation of absolutely nothing.

*Yes, but be sure you're giving the message you intend.

 

[psneeld]

Marin wrote:psneeld wrote:
*If you are a US flagged/documented vessel and you fly a US "courtesy flag" from the spreader...as far as*I am concerned...you are just pissing on it because it's NOT RIGHT according to*everything I know about maritime customs and flags.

So does that mean that all the sailboat owners I see around here who fly their US flags from their mast stays are "pissing" on the flag?* I wonder if they know that....

Anyway, like you said, it's not anything I view as important.* It's just a flag.* If people want*to get all emotional*about it--- by the way, did you know the design is based on*George Washington's family's coat of arms in England, so it's not even an American orginal---* I've got no problem with that at all.**I think*what*the flag stands for is important but I don't think the flag itself is important.* It's just a logo.* Like the apple on the top of my laptop.

And I don't believe the "rules" about where to fly it are actually laws.* They are just conventions that over time have become standards.* I don't believe it is illegal to fly an American flag any way or anywhere*you want to, just as it is not illegal to burn one.* (There have been numerous attempts to pass anti-desecration laws but every one of them has been struck down by the Supreme Court as violating the first amendment.)

So it would appear that*if we choose to fly a small American flag from our starboard spreader we are in violation of absolutely nothing.

*You can disagree...I just suggest you stay in the PNW...elsewhere you might be sorry for your cavalier point of view.

And you have already posted your view on how you like to deal with other people/boaters so pissing off a lot of veterans I know doesn't phase you in the least.

It doesn't piss me off...I make allowances for the people*I served for 23 plus years.

*

*


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 3rd of February 2012 09:08:47 PM

 

[FF]

"So it would appear that if we choose to fly a small American flag from our starboard spreader we are in violation of absolutely nothing."

Except courtesy.

Do not expect a warm welcome from folks , while you spit in their face.

 

[Marin]

FF wrote:Do not expect a warm welcome from folks , while you spit in their face.

*We've been doing this for twelve years (when we are on the boat on July 14, sometimes we're not), and so far the only comment we have ever gotten was from a fellow in a marine park who asked about the French flag and when we told him it was in honor of Bastille Day and our boat was named for a French naval captain who fought in support of the US during our Revolution he said, "Very cool."

You guys have all become masters at making mountains out of molehills.* It's just a frickin' flag for God's sake.* Get a life.

 

[psneeld]

Marin wrote:FF wrote:Do not expect a warm welcome from folks , while you spit in their face.

*We've been doing this for twelve years (when we are on the boat on July 14, sometimes we're not), and so far the only comment we have ever gotten was from a fellow in a marine park who asked about the French flag and when we told him it was in honor of Bastille Day and our boat was named for a French naval captain who fought in support of the US during our Revolution he said, "Very cool."

You guys have all become masters at making mountains out of molehills.* It's just a frickin' flag for God's sake.* Get a life.

*I have a great life*

....especially those 23 years I spent many days almost lying my life down for THAT flag...

Get a life???....nah...I just have a vastly different opinion of what that flag stands for than you.

You're so proud to fly that French flag of yours...shame you don't see it for the US flag.*

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:Marin wrote:FF wrote:Do not expect a warm welcome from folks , while you spit in their face.

*We've been doing this for twelve years (when we are on the boat on July 14, sometimes we're not), and so far the only comment we have ever gotten was from a fellow in a marine park who asked about the French flag and when we told him it was in honor of Bastille Day and our boat was named for a French naval captain who fought in support of the US during our Revolution he said, "Very cool."

You guys have all become masters at making mountains out of molehills.* It's just a frickin' flag for God's sake.* Get a life.

*I have a great life*

....especially those 23 years I spent many days almost lying my life down for THAT flag...

Get a life???....nah...I just have a vastly different opinion of what that flag stands for than you.

You're so proud to fly that French flag of yours...shame you don't see it for the US flag.*

Glad to hear you know exactly how we think and why we do what we do.* My crystal ball is still in the shop so I don't have that same information about everybody else right now.

We fly the US flag properly 364 days a year (well, all the days we are on the boat that aren't July 14.)* Your assumption that because we choose to honor my father (who was French), his country, which also happens to be a country that assisted the US in it's time of greatest need--- achieveing its independence--- and the country of half my heritage means that we choose NOT to honor the US or regard the US as worth honoriing is just plain stupid on your part, in my opinion.

I've met a whole lot of vets so far in my life, from WWII to Korea to Viet Nam to the current Middle East conflicts.* I never heard any of them say they were fighting for the flag.* They all said they were fighting for our country, or to preserve our freedom, or eliminate a threat to the world.* Stuff like that.* But I don't recall once any of them saying they were flying their planes or fighting their ships or operating their MRAPs in defence of the flag.* The flag is the logo for their country, but it wasn't the thing they were fighting or serving if they weren't involved in combat.

You want to go around claiming you spent all this time doing whatever you did in the service for the sole purpose of honoring and defending a rectangle of colored cloth that you can buy at almost any hardware store, that's fine.

The vets I know and have met have much higher senses of purpose than that.

 

[KJ]

Marin-- have you ever served in any branch of the U.S. military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard?** Yes or no will do.************************* KJ

 

[psneeld]

Marin...you write as if I'm not a vet or don't know any with the same opinion as yours or mine.* I agree...burn a flag...go ahead... as*I/we pledged to defend the country that allows it.

Big difference between defending the country that allows flag burning and like it being done.

Burn it or fly it from the wrong spot inferior to another countries flag for just ONE SECOND...and I'll bet most vets will agree with me.* I/We don't think you should be thown in prison..but show me a vet that likes it or it's*just they*can't be bothered one way or another.**Which is me about now...I just can't be bothered...fly it anyway you want...but it does piss off a lot of vets...just like flying a tattered*one.....

 

[dwhatty]

Well, I've served and I must say that I agree with Marin. I mostly follow "flag etiquette" but mainly because I like the tradition of it all, not because I hold a piece of cloth to be sacred. Besides, the last couple of US flags I bought said "Made in China" on them.

 

[psneeld]

dwhatty wrote:
Well, I've served and I must say that I agree with Marin. I mostly follow "flag etiquette" but mainly because I like the tradition of it all, not because I hold a piece of cloth to be sacred. Besides, the last couple of US flags I bought said "Made in China" on them.

*I don't disagree...I'm not rabid about flying it* like some...but if I'm gonna fly it...I'm NOT going to disrespect it.

Like I said...burn it if you must...but I won't think much of you if you do...disrespecting it intentionally and proudly doing it isn't very far behind.

 

[Marin]

KJ wrote:
Marin-- have you ever served in any branch of the U.S. military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard?** Yes or no will do.************************* KJ

No.

I-- like every boy in Hawaii in those days--- was in Army ROTC in high school in Hawaii.* Learned to operate an M-1, M-60, plot map coordinates for calling in artillery strikes, throw grenades, drilled in uniform with an M-1 every Wednesday afternoon.* All essential knowledge for high school boys, right?* I was in Air Force ROTC in my freshman year at Colorado State.* I transferred to the University of Hawaii for my remaining three years and got a job in television that kept me very busy outside classes so did not continue ROTC.

Like every other American college kid I had a student deferment and when the lottery came around my birthday was drawn 278.* Plus I was registered in Hawaii.* So I was never called up.

Then Viet Nam was done and the draft went away and that was that.

Came close to joining the Navy between freshman and sophomore years of college but then got into other things and didn't.

I grew up in Hawaii at a time when the military was the state's number one driver of the economy followed by sugar and pineapple.* Most of our family friends were in or associated with the military.* My mother dated a submarine commander for a couple of years.* A lot of the guys I worked with in television over there were recent Viet Nam vets.* So the military has never been a big deal to me, pro or con.* It's just a job a lot of people I knew and know happened to have.

I never had any particular interest in the military, was never required to join it, and events took me in another direction the one time I thought I might.* So other than my ROTC experience for whatever that's worth, and my current job which occasionally supports the military, I was never in it and have never given it any thought one way or the other.

 

[Giggitoni]

Scott, I think you're making a little bit too much of this thread.* I've been on this forum for four or five years now and I judge Marin to be a reasonable thinker and not too emotional in his replies with the rest of us.* In fact, politically, to me anyway,*he appears to be a couple of klicks to the right of center (I'll probably get jumped for saying that!).*

Marin just said that he flies the flag correctly 364 days per year (365 this year) and one day per year honors his father, etc.* Give it a rest!

*

 

[Marin]

psneeld wrote:but if I'm gonna fly it...I'm NOT going to disrespect it.
*

I'm curious where you get this "disrespect it" thing from.* When we fly the US flag, which is 99.99999 percent of the time when we're on the boat, it's not like we fly it upside down or with a big peace symbol spray painted on it or a red circle a diagonal bar drawn across it or anything.* Flying a different flag in place of the US flag is not disrespecting the flag, it's simpy not flying it on that occasion.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 6th of February 2012 01:53:42 PM

 

[Marin]

Giggitoni wrote:
In fact, politically, to me anyway,*he appears to be a couple of klicks to the right of center (I'll probably get jumped for saying that!).*

*

*No, you're right I think.* More than a couple of kicks, actually, with regards to things like the economy, self-responsibility, and self-reliance.

 

[JD]

KJ wrote:
Marin-- have you ever served in any branch of the U.S. military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard?** Yes or no will do.************************* KJ

*Here we go with this old saw.* Once again, what does that have to do with anything.*

I'll say this again as I have before.* There were folks in the Navy with me that I would not let cut my grass, live next door to or date my daughter if I had one. One such person*had an accident while we were at Great Lakes going down the stairs from the second deck*on the way to the brig when the Fire Watch we were on found him going through some lockers.* But he can answer you question in the affirmative.

So how does he stack up in the equation of who's*good and who's not?*

 

[psneeld]

Giggitoni wrote:
Scott, I think you're making a little bit too much of this thread.* I've been on this forum for four or five years now and I judge Marin to be a reasonable thinker and not too emotional in his replies with the rest of us.* In fact, politically, to me anyway,*he appears to be a couple of klicks to the right of center (I'll probably get jumped for saying that!).*

Marin just said that he flies the flag correctly 364 days per year (365 this year) and one day per year honors his father, etc.* Give it a rest!

*

*Why me and no one else?* I just pointed out how it it most commonly "correctly" flown and it went from there.* I posted at least one official link that concurred.* I can live with what's most "commonly" considered correct and what someone may consider respectful/disrespectful and leave it at that.*

And since when does "time" in a forum mean anything unless it's for social reasons*????* On*several other frorums where this same discussion was brought up the vets usually chimed in with more enthusiasm and many other links decsribing the "place of honor" for the home country ensign.* I was thinking the same might happen here.

Everyone's correct it's not a huge deal...but the thread was about flags and many described how they do it and some felt there was a correct way over just random placement.* Fly it any way you want to but don't expect me to just sit on the sidelines if you are going to defend the way you do it and it goes against the common grain of respect for it.

 

[psneeld]

JD wrote:KJ wrote:
Marin-- have you ever served in any branch of the U.S. military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard?** Yes or no will do.************************* KJ

*Here we go with this old saw.* Once again, what does that have to do with anything.*

I'll say this again as I have before.* There were folks in the Navy with me that I would not let cut my grass, live next door to or date my daughter if I had one. One such person*had an accident while we were at Great Lakes going down the stairs from the second deck*on the way to the brig when the Fire Watch we were on found him going through some lockers.* But he can answer you question in the affirmative.

So how does he stack up in the equation of who's*good and who's not?*

*Man...the Dirty Dozen was on the other night...guess you missed it...*

 

[KJ]

*
This is not where I would have expected or desired this*thread to go to when I posted it.

Out of respect for those who currently serve our country and those that have sacrificed their lives for this country and the flag that it*represents, I am requesting that we put this discussion to rest. *************************KJ

*

-- Edited by KJ on Monday 6th of February 2012 04:46:21 PM

 

[Steve]

Amen,
Steve W.

 

[Codger2]

By way of a Post script to this thread, as I just recently read it.

I was in the Navy for 4 years and had a few experiences that were very exciting. I am glad I went as I grew up while I was there.

Why did I go? To serve my country? To honor the flag? No, I went for the pure adventure of it and found it! I'll never forget and always cherish my time in the Navy but my motive for going was driven by my desire for adventure, action, etc. Not patriotism.

 

[KJ]

I'll ask again, let it rest.