having trouble with back and fill

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ranger42c said:
Fair enough. I'd forgotten your upper helm is way far forward, and your lower helm maybe only allows visibility on one side...

OTOH, I'd bet there are many destination slips where you can't get off the boat easily if you don't back in -- sort finger piers and so forth -- so it'll keep raising it's ugly head.

But, that said, then...

One of the watermen here in our marina is almost all the way in our ~300' fairway. Single screw, no thruster I think.

He just backs all the way in. If wind is crossing, he just favors the windward side. He has controls in his wide-open cockpit, though, so no visibility issues...

I could back our older Mainship with decent steerage, once I got up enough way for the rudder to have some effect. Seldom used capability that around the dock, but a couple times it came in handy enough. Our upper helm was further back on the bridge though, so visibility was good...

-Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

Helm lower has good visibility for the most part. Rarely an issue getting off at slips away form home. Not hard to duck under the rail.

I haven't practiced backing long distance so that's on the slate.
 
When I have to turn the boat around at the dock(such as when I am painting the hull) and I don't want or can't pull completely away from the dock then I will use current or wind to help. Smaller, lighter boat I could do by myself, heavier boat I would want a dock/deckhand with me. In your scenario while boat is still tied to dock, stern to the wind, I would take another bow line from the port side, hang under your anchor and pass to deckhand on dock and make fast. If I'm alone I would throw excess line on dock, jump off and make fast to the dock. I, or the deckhand would then let go the other lines, push stern out to catch the wind or current then grab that other bow line from the port side, pull in and then pull/walk the boat up in to the wind /current. The boat could swing within it's own length and end up port side to the dock. The bow now where the stern was. From there deckhand/you can push off jump aboard you drive out, or you tie up other lines and work on port side. The wind and current can be your friend.
 
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cappy208 said:
One comment:

When in extremis as you will be (short room, max expectation of maneuverability) you need EVERY bit of performance you can wring out of the old girl.

The third post mentioned to NOT turn the helm when backing and filling. This is definitely hindering the propwalk advantage. Not knowing your rudder size, it likely is fairly large for a single screw, trawler application. They DO effect stern direction when not shifted in cases like yours. A wheel suicide knob is helpful unless you have a hydraulic joystick helm.

In my experience people who don't shift the rudder lose out (sometimes infinitesimally, other times hugely) on performance. The problem, when in extremis, a newbie can (and often does) get confused and gives a shot of throttle when the rudder is the wrong way (or not hard over) which totally loses whatever gain had been made thus far in maneuver. Also, use HARD OVER when giving a shot ahead. There is no sense in making headway when you want a hard turn to work in your advantage.

Okay, 2:
Practice out in the open, with a couple milk jugs weighted down with sand, tied to empty ones. Make an obstacle course. Try using the same measurements as you have in close.. Maneuver between them to practice. Do try as some have suggested C.W versus C..C.W.. It is amazing how much different a single screw boat will turn one way versus the other.


Okay, 3:
As a completely out of the box solution, (since the photobucket pic is unviewable to me), what is directly astern of you when in the slip and how far away is the other side? bulkhead, Bank, trees? use of a 'leaving line' could accomplish what you are trying to do. use of a line from opposite bank, as a line to spring off of, then toss it back ashore to use next time. It would be a two person operation to reel the slack in as you back up, but would be invaluable to hold the boat up as you spin to keep you off the dock.
Click to expand...

Cappy,
Haven't tried turning the wheel much in the back and fill technique. It just takes too much time, but I've played with it. May try it more. If I had a way to rack it over fast, it would be an advantage. I'll work on that. Might have to get a suicide knob.

2. I've done a fair amount of practice in open water, doing donuts both ways, with various amounts of thrust.... and for the most part, works fine, just like it does off the dock. Add a bit of wind and it gets much harder..... even 6 to 8 knots.

3. Directly astern when at the slip is a canal that goes back 1300 feet and opens into the ICW. It's about 30 to 60 feet wide depending on tide. Houses with docks on one side and as one crosses the canal, it gets shallower until reaching a island with mangroves. Tying off in the mangroves would be hard and I just don't want to impose on my neighbor when I be throwing a loose line up on his dock.

Plus I want to get in and out solo.

But good thoughts, thx.
 
Xsbank said:
There is nothing undignified about leaving your dock backwards, until you are in open water; use the rudder hard over and a little forward thrust (occasionally as necessary), to keep it moving straight backwards. Much lower stress. I leave backwards if the wind is blowing in to the dock like your diagram shows. In my marina where you show marsh I have a rock wall.

Just back straight down the fairway.
Click to expand...

That gets my vote as well. Once you have decent way on, even in reverse the rudder will probably be able to be used to steer with, ie hard to starb'd to move stern to that side and vice versa. Or just leaving it to stb'd might just cancel out the port prop-walk. However, if not, then as highlighted above in Xsbank's post. If you still prop-walk to port, then put the rudder over to port in that scenario, and the occasional burst in forward should correct the stern wandering to port.
As Xsbank said..."There is nothing undignified about leaving your dock backwards, until you are in open water." :D
 
Have you concidered docking stern first so that you can exit straight out? You can pick your spot to turn 180 degrees on the way in.
 
High Wire said:
Have you concidered docking stern first so that you can exit straight out? You can pick your spot to turn 180 degrees on the way in.
Click to expand...

Or that, if possible would be a good way to solve it, but I suspect he has thought of that. However, once confident with backing straight for any distance, he might feel confident enough to consider doing a U-turn nearer his berth, then reversing the final bit.
 
After reading the complete post I wonder if during a previous commissioning/ battery exchange if your batteries were hooked up incorrectly. My thruster is operated off the house battery. And BOTH house and starting are charged via a battery combiner through the alternator. As long as the engine is running the battery's are charged. Yours should be the same ( in theory).
 
My thruster battery is separate from my entire 12 volt system. It has an AC trickle charger hard wired to its own battery. I don't like it. My windlass also is powered off this battery. Makes me like it less. I guess PO didn't want to buy the required wire. $$$$$.
I'm a 34 foot boat in a 30 foot slip and pile to pile (fairway width) is 47 feet. TIGHT! I always power up my thruster but my goal is not to use it. I enjoy the challenge. Throw a stiff breeze into the equation and I'll not hesitate to use it. My dock mates compliment my boat handling skills but it requires lots of practice. Seevee, keep practicing, it will get easier.
 
When away from the dock try backing at some speed and see if the rudder can be used to steer once moving. Don't worry about the direction at first the goal is the get some speed then see if you have control with reduced power. Also try backing and shifting to neutral to see if the boat will respond to the rudder better without the prop walk effect. Sometimes less power will allow the rudder to work because there is less prop walk.
 
Good info, I'm gonna spend more time in reverse at different speeds and rudder deflections to see exactly what it will do.
 
Seevee: How long have you owned this boat? Have you (or a mechanic) recently changed the batteries, or connections? Wondering about charging system while underway. From your description it sounds as if something's off kilter.
 
After reviewing all the great comments, I've come up with the following solutions:

1. Practice reverse operation at different speeds and rudder defection in open water, then practice running in reverse all the way to the ICW.

2. Turning to starboard after backing out ~200 feet to take advantage of the prop walk.

3. Checking out the charging system to be sure and be sure the engine is charging the house batteries.

Good ideas.... thx.
 
SeeVee
I haven't read all of the posts but we have similar boats. I have a 390 and i'm in a similar situation. Your boat wants to back to port no matter the rudder position. re read post 17 and try that; its what I do every day. You can turn 360 to starboard but not to port. I leave my rudder hard to starboard and back out putting it in and out of gear until my bow clears. then forward/reverse without touching the wheel I turn to starboard. Use short bursts of throttle to help depending on the wind. I have a bow thruster but no stern thruster. If there is a lot of wind I will touch the thruster to help but usually don't use it. I've never docked a 400 but I think it handles better than the 390 because of my rudder/prop being so far forward.
John
 
Also, I re read more of the responses. The reason I leave the wheel hard over is that Mainships have fairly small rudders when compared to other "Trawler" type boats. Rudder position does not effect prop walk .
John
 
Take the beast out and find yourself a mooring to use as a reference point. Practice! Try firmly goosing it in forward and reverse with helm port and starboard. Try driving it around in reverse. Folks I've watched (in amazement) were not shy with helm or throttle. Practice until what you think is actually what you do. And, don't shift except at idle.

Then move on to using spring lines on pilings. Pretty remarkable! We've learned to use spring lines with my wife holding both ends aboard, and with the line only looped over the pile. She'll cast off one end when necessary and appropriate and pull it aboard. We're beginning to learn to use a dock line temporarily cleated and swing the boat side to side with throttle and helm against the tension to be able to grab the piling of our desire.

None of the boats featured in this Forum are docile with cross wind or current. Practice!

Our sailboats were horrendous in reverse and 'prop walk' was a theoretical term. Our NE 38 was particularly unruly with its short lwl and high bow.
 
ranger42c said:
One of the watermen here in our marina is almost all the way in our ~300' fairway. Single screw, no thruster I think.

He just backs all the way in. If wind is crossing, he just favors the windward side. He has controls in his wide-open cockpit, though, so no visibility issues...
Click to expand...


My apologies; I gave bad info here. We watched him last evening, and it turns out he has twins, sort of an unusual configuration for the charter boats around here. Don't really know why he backs in all that way; he's up close to the source dock, but in the second slip, so we think he'd have room to enter, turn to starboard down near the end, and then back into the slip on the port side of the fairway.

Another charter, behind us, docks more like I remember from our Mainship days. The boat will turn tightly to starboard, and the stern will walk to port... and he docks stern-to in a slip on the left side of his fairway (as he enters).

The watermen in Rock Hall and at other similar venues around here are indeed something to watch. Note they're not afraid to use THROTTLE! And operating from the stern/cockpit does make a difference. But also note the "course" is often a slip made up of lightweight poles temporarily set in the water... and they don't have to worry about depth or rocks or whatever in those contests. :)

-Chris
 
cappy208 said:
Seevee: How long have you owned this boat? Have you (or a mechanic) recently changed the batteries, or connections? Wondering about charging system while underway. From your description it sounds as if something's off kilter.
Click to expand...

Cappy

Owned it for just a few months... got about 60 hours on it. Batteries were new last year, and while I did have to clean and retighten the connections, they seemed fine. However, I'm surprise that the house bank does not charge with the engine alternator. That, I'll check in to.

Also, looking at an inverter so could kill both at the same time.
 
Update,

Did some practicing and got some professional instruction.

What I've learned.....

Backing up is not much of a problem, but it's work and constantly have to pay attention with minor adjustments especially if there's wind. Very difficult to do without thrusters. My channel is just too narrow to make this a viable option. If the wind is so bad I can't turn around, backing would be quite difficult.

Also, almost impossible to turn around to the port side (against the prop walk) without thrusters. Turning to Starboard works without trusters quite well, but only at fairly high tide.

So, I have some options.... Thx for the great replies.
 
psneeld said:
In reality, unless both thrusters fail within minutes of each other, Ski is right in the sense that this docking situation may require at least one working to make this slip with wind.

I am pretty handy with boats, but I know my limitations cold, and usually grasp a situation that while doable, is fraught with doubts of successful completion.

This is one docking situstion that without a thruster, I may avoid till the wind dies or I have a thruster.

A classic example of how a great skipper knows when he shouldn't rely on great skills for a great maneuver.
Click to expand...

So look,
My bow thruster hadn't worked for two years.
I got it fixed last year, but I think a shear pin needed to be replaced and it wasn't.
That was in Scotland.

Now in Costa Rica, nothing has changed.
Since I should be able to check the shear pin inside the boat, why haven't I???

My worst docking experiences (but for the Grace of God go I) were in the bow thruster era.

I realized that having the bow thruster made me think "Yes, I can do that" when some marina person would suggest something risky ("please back up 100 feet to fit in that space you can hardly see").

With no bow thruster, I'm more likely to say, "No, I can't do that" and I've discovered the reaction is usually "no problem, do this real easy thing instead".

So, I've learned by not depending on it. I make my life easier.
 
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Wxx3 said:
So look,
My bow thruster hadn't worked for two years.
I got it fixed last year, but I think a shear pin needed to be replaced and it wasn't.
That was in Scotland.

Now in Costa Rica, nothing has changed.
Since I should be able to check the shear pin inside the boat, why haven't I???

My worst docking experiences (but for the Grace of God go I) were in the bow thruster era.

I realized that having the bow thruster made me think "Yes, I can do that" when some marina person would suggest something risky ("please back up 100 feet to fit in that space you can hardly see").

With no bow thruster, I'm more likely to say, "No, I can't do that" and I've discovered the reaction is usually "no problem, do this real easy thing instead".

So, I've learned by not depending on it. I make my life easier.
Click to expand...

Richard,

Good point, and perhaps at your skill level that philosophy works.

However, I'd argue to have all the tools available for a comfortable operation. Use them as needed, but as anything need to train and be prepared for a failure. I've always tried to use the thruster as a tool to get the job done. I did have one fail in my Forumla just as I was docking in a tight slip, but survived without damage.

As for the trawler, if I turn to port (against the prop walk) out of the slip, I'm convinced that it's just not doable. I have been turning the other way lately, but have to watch the shallow water at the stern end, but it's much more effective, even without a thruster. I tuck the bow between two docks as I turn but need to watch the effect of the wind, and I'll need more practice on that one, but the thrusters have made it a LOT easier should I miss judge the wind a bit.

However, thx to you and the group for all the good suggestions.
 
Seevee: I could not look at your dock plan so cannot comment on the specifics, but the advice that has been given about getting some instruction from a captain makes sense. It's also something I'd like to do. One suggestion I have not seen is: are you able to "turn the boat" at the dock? I am uncertain if that can work in your situation. We turn the boat at our home dock all the time, as I don't like doing stern-in, port-side docking because of the same lack of control you describe: the stern prop-walks to starboard when in reverse. I like to tie up the boat on the port side because the dockside power receptacles are on the port side and the cord is too short for a starboard tie up

We turn the boat at the dock through the use of a long 50+' stern line, with one person on shore and me at the helm. We cast off all lines and I use the bow thruster exclusively to turn the boat 180 degrees. It works very well, even in wind. The main engine is running but it's not used at all in the process.

Jim
 
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JDCAVE said:
Seevee: I could not look at your dock plan so cannot comment on the specifics, but the advice that has been given about getting some instruction from a captain makes sense. It's also something I'd like to do. One suggestion I have not seen is: are you able to "turn the boat" at the dock? I am uncertain if that can work in your situation. We turn the boat at our home dock all the time, as I don't like doing stern-in, port-side docking because of the same lack of control you describe: the stern prop-walks to starboard when in reverse. I like to tie up the boat on the port side because the dockside power receptacles are on the port side and the cord is too short for a starboard tie up

We turn the boat at the dock through the use of a long 50+' stern line, with one person on shore and me at the helm. We cast off all lines and I use the bow thruster exclusively to turn the boat 180 degrees. It works very well, even in wind. The main engine is running but it's not used at all in the process.

Jim
Click to expand...

JD,

You must have a strong bow thruster. I can turn mine with only the bow thruster but would probably burn it up for a 180d turn if I didn't use the engine.

No, I can't turn the boat around at the dock. I've got about 16 feet for a 14.5 beam. I need to get back about 200 feet to have that space.

My best docking is done bow in. I'm on the dock "side" of the boat and can easily do it solo by throwing a line on a cleat easily. Plus the bow is in very shallow water, and is zero at low tide... not good for the rudder and prop. The stern end is in about 5 feet at low tide.

I'm lucky, I have power both bow and stern and when I finish installing dock power it will be bow.
 
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