Investing in airlines during the corona crisis?

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"and you count those being paid and not working"

Government Burorats?

"even the recovery may be rocky with runaway inflation and the need for wage and price controls such as Nixon implemented."

The result of multiple QE is always expected.

It will be interesting this cycle as so many govs have attempted to print away their worries, and your life savings.
 
"and you count those being paid and not working"

Government Burorats?

"even the recovery may be rocky with runaway inflation and the need for wage and price controls such as Nixon implemented."

The result of multiple QE is always expected.

It will be interesting this cycle as so many govs have attempted to print away their worries, and your life savings.

Not just government buerocrats but talking heads in media who have lived so long apart from the main street folks they are literally living on a different world.
 
Virgin Australia has asked for a $1.4B bailout loan to help it survive, with an offer that if it has not repaid the loan in 3 years to give Govt a stake in the airline. Frankly, I`d rather stick pins in my eyes while licking a hot iron than own any part of VA.
It`s owned by Singapore Airlines, Etihad,the Chinese airline groups Nanshan and HNA,and Branson interests,with about 8.5% of remaining shares publicly held. The shares have a junk rating. A lot of planes are leased not owned. It has ceased all international services and 90% of its domestic services. Fortunately Air New Zealand sold its shares about 4 years ago.
 
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Wont work in most situations but the Germans have a simple method.

If a workers hours are reduced , unemployment insurance makes up the difference.

Simple & neat .
 
Australia has adopted a form of employer wage support. For employees retained, Govt pays $1500 per fortnight to employer. There is some fine print but that`s the essence of it. For others put off or ineligible, there is enhanced unemployment benefits. The concept, as just advocated at G20,is to put the economy into "hibernation", ready to be woken ready to go when the time comes.
Puts what was to be an economy in surplus back into deficit but that`s the price of trying to avoid recession or worse. Was the US economy in or going into surplus before this?
 
Australia has adopted a form of employer wage support. For employees retained, Govt pays $1500 per fortnight to employer. There is some fine print but that`s the essence of it. For others put off or ineligible, there is enhanced unemployment benefits. The concept, as just advocated at G20,is to put the economy into "hibernation", ready to be woken ready to go when the time comes.
Puts what was to be an economy in surplus back into deficit but that`s the price of trying to avoid recession or worse. Was the US economy in or going into surplus before this?

No, US was in biggest deficit ever.

We have an expanded Covid 19 emergency unemployment benefits. At this point though the states are waiting for guidance on how to administer the program. It should compensate those unemployed due to the virus well, much better than our normal unemployment which depending on the state is often as low as $275 or $325 maximum per week.

If this program works as promised, it should ease things for individuals, especially hourly workers.

However, when it comes to businesses, I expect us to see record numbers of bankruptcies and I do not see the bills that have been passed preventing that, just perhaps reducing it.
 
On April 1st thru the 9th, Warren Buffet sold off large amounts of both Delta and Southwest Airlines stock.
 
Yeah I saw that. Not a good sign.
 
I see that Jet Blue is flying with all middle seats empty. Even with a return to normal demand levels that alone will destroy their business model. Add in a collapse of foreign vacation travel and businesses that have gotten accustomed to virtual conferences and the industry will never be the same again.
 
Ch. 11 is a very real possibility for the airlines. Likely why Buffet got out.
 
Buffet did not sell all his Delta & Sw. he did sell off rather large chunks. It is possible he is only interested in getting under the 10% ownership cap. Still, if this was his goal, why. Does he fore see complications with large ownership and bail outs or is he trying to get under the 10% rules in order to be able to maneuver with out filing. Would that maneuver be to sell more? Buy more? Ride it out with out government interference?

As I have mentioned before, it is very hard to follow Buffet and be successful. You are usually better off to just buy Berkshire Hathaway stock.
 
Buffet did not sell all his Delta & Sw. he did sell off rather large chunks. It is possible he is only interested in getting under the 10% ownership cap. Still, if this was his goal, why. Does he fore see complications with large ownership and bail outs or is he trying to get under the 10% rules in order to be able to maneuver with out filing. Would that maneuver be to sell more? Buy more? Ride it out with out government interference?

As I have mentioned before, it is very hard to follow Buffet and be successful. You are usually better off to just buy Berkshire Hathaway stock.

See above. If passenger demand does not significantly rise through the summer, it is highly likely the airlines will be filing CH.11. Either that or the government comes in and gives more cash to the airlines....being an election year and all.
 
Buffet did not sell all his Delta & Sw. he did sell off rather large chunks. It is possible he is only interested in getting under the 10% ownership cap. Still, if this was his goal, why. Does he fore see complications with large ownership and bail outs or is he trying to get under the 10% rules in order to be able to maneuver with out filing. Would that maneuver be to sell more? Buy more? Ride it out with out government interference?

As I have mentioned before, it is very hard to follow Buffet and be successful. You are usually better off to just buy Berkshire Hathaway stock.

He prefers not being an insider, as 10% makes him. In fact, with one Delta Purchase it caught him a bit by surprise because it was caused by all the stock buybacks they made. Being under 10% allows him to buy and sell more freely and with less attention. It also reduces the Buffett Effect on the stocks, that when he sells, it causes them to go down and when he buys they generally go up.
 
Buffet sells the remainder of his airline stocks. He sees a long hard road ahead of the airlines and chooses not to join them on this journey.
 
Buffet sells the remainder of his airline stocks. He sees a long hard road ahead of the airlines and chooses not to join them on this journey.

I could’ve told him that!!! CH11 is a very real possibility.
 
Back in March I mentioned TWILO as a better investment than Airline stocks. Anybody notice that TWILO went up 47% today?
 
Buffet sells the remainder of his airline stocks. He sees a long hard road ahead of the airlines and chooses not to join them on this journey.

It was more a Munger’s decision than Buffet’s, but result is the same : to get through "the worst typhoon that’s ever happened" with as much liquidity as possible.
 
I could’ve told him that!!! CH11 is a very real possibility.


Hey Baker. Hope all is relatively well, considering.

What happens to pilots if an airline files chapter 11?
 
What about shorting them? Is there much room for them to fall before they get to the penny stock range?
 
Delta has already dropped from $60 to $20. While there is room still to fall, your risk to reward is out of balance. With a short sale you have a limited amount of reward but an unlimited potential for loss. I see way to much potential for government intervention to bet on a short sale.

Never take stock advice from some random dude on the internet.
 
From Haaretz.

New York-based Eli Rozenberg Offers $75m for 44.99% of Israel's El Al.
Scion of American family says he is ready to buy control of Israel’s flag carrier despite its ‘challenging’ condition.

Eli Rozenberg, the 30-year-old yeshiva student and scion of a New York family in the nursing home business, made his offer Monday for control of El Al Airlines, saying he and his family were prepared to pay $75 million for an allocation of shares that would give him a 44.99% stake.

The stake is the maximum he can offer to achieve control of Israel’s flag carrier without having to make a general offer for all the shares, under Israeli regulations.
 

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From Haaretz.

New York-based Eli Rozenberg Offers $75m for 44.99% of Israel's El Al.
Scion of American family says he is ready to buy control of Israel’s flag carrier despite its ‘challenging’ condition.

Eli Rozenberg, the 30-year-old yeshiva student and scion of a New York family in the nursing home business, made his offer Monday for control of El Al Airlines, saying he and his family were prepared to pay $75 million for an allocation of shares that would give him a 44.99% stake.

The stake is the maximum he can offer to achieve control of Israel’s flag carrier without having to make a general offer for all the shares, under Israeli regulations.

Guess the nursing home business is going better than I would have thought with all the deaths.
 
Mmm, I have flown on El Al.
Qantas is issuing shares to raise capital. They`ve done other things,like raising $ on some planes owned outright. The issue was first placed with institutions, and offered by SPP to general shareholders. They just extended the SPP close date by 2 weeks.Likely not being swamped by take up. Especially with our second most populous state back in lockdown,and my state right next door very nervous of something similar.
 
Google just announced they are extending work-from-home through June, 2021. I expect the other tech companies will be following suit. In March I thought that by July we would have a good grip on the virus and we would be on the way back to something approaching normalcy. Here we are and the unknowns are still massive. I'm going to go out on a limb and make the following predictions:
1. There will never be a truly effective vaccine (unlike, say, the polio vaccine). I predict that the vaccines will prove to have severe side effects and unintended consequences (like making later exposures to other coronaviruses more severe, cytokine storms in some people, etc.).
2. Some people will have long-term health problems that cannot be cured. Read up on the people with long-term COVID problems (scary stuff - cognition issues, heart/lung/organ problems, strokes in healthy people...).
3. Exposed children will develop health issues in the future.
4. Travel, especially international, will stay down for a long time into the future. Expect airlines to go under and extreme consolidation among the survivors. Boeing and Airbus will suffer, as fuel costs stay low and surviving airlines don't care about saving another 5-10% on fuel. Government bailouts will fail over the long term. Stocks in the toilet.
5. Dogs will be trained to sniff out people with COVID (Germany announced early success, with 95%+ success rates). Initially will be used at airports, but I expect a year from now dogs will be at schools, churches and other gathering places. Two years from now some places (neighborhoods, counties, island countries) will use these dogs ro establish COVID-free safe zones where people can enjoy a pre-COVID kind of lifestyle. Expect huge societal issues when dealing with people who have been exposed being forced to leave their homes in order to secure a safe zone.
6. In a year or two it will become clear that people who were moderately ill and recovered will have recurrences just as people with the herpes virus have recurrences. I expect during a recurrence the sufferer will be contagious (just like with herpes), so that people who have been exposed will never be allowed into a "safe zone."

Don't get me started on protests, riots, how to successfully shut down an economy, long-term effects on small businesses, the "right" to not wear a mask, and so on. I think there is a 50-50 chance that this will end up being far worse than the Spanish Flu and more like the plague. Ugh.
 
Well, you win, Robster. I thought I had a negative view of what is likely to happen but yours is worse. The problem is that yours is quite possible.

Now, I think the virus will continue primarily unchecked well into 2021 and we'll have hundreds of deaths each week continuing. Even after it's primary phases I think it will still be with us at a lower rate of infection.

I do share your fears of the long term health consequences for both adults and children. That's the thing, we measure how bad it is by the current deaths, but the real measure requires consideration of long term damage which we don't know, but we have many indications that respiratory, heart, blood clotting, and other problems may last indefinitely. We may have a generation plagued by pulmonary fibrosis and congestive heart failure or strokes at an increased level.

As to the economic damages, they're secondary in my mind to the health issues but this will be the worst economy we've seen since the Depression.
 
More food for thought

Hi BandB,

I read a thread on Twitter yesterday written by a woman suffering side effects for four months and counting (#longcovid). There is a large FaceBook group for long covid sufferers. Though we're early on, the tweet thread I read by Hannah Davis claimed that 20% of previously-healthy people under 50 ended up with long COVID.

Symptoms differ over a crazy range, including: insomnia, vivid dreams (like hallucinations), allergy flareups and allergy disappearances, flareups of old visurses, pain from old injuries or surgeries, cognitive issues, and more.

Hannah had been very careful and during an easing had gone shopping without a mask, one time, which is when she caught it...
 
Hi BandB,

I read a thread on Twitter yesterday written by a woman suffering side effects for four months and counting (#longcovid). There is a large FaceBook group for long covid sufferers. Though we're early on, the tweet thread I read by Hannah Davis claimed that 20% of previously-healthy people under 50 ended up with long COVID.

Symptoms differ over a crazy range, including: insomnia, vivid dreams (like hallucinations), allergy flareups and allergy disappearances, flareups of old visurses, pain from old injuries or surgeries, cognitive issues, and more.

Hannah had been very careful and during an easing had gone shopping without a mask, one time, which is when she caught it...
What, no gout or hair loss?
 
Robster's menu of predictions runs from highly likely to depressingly dystopian. As an historian, predicting the future is not my specialty, but history suggests that at least #1 and #4 are likely to prove out. Regarding #1, the Great Influenza happened more a century ago, and immunology has made great advances since then. And yet, the flu is still with us. The notion that a vaccine will neutralize COVID-19 strikes me as magical thinking.

#4 is obviously true on its face. Every shred of evidence already points to consolidation in the perpetually vulnerable airline industry. There is widespread public aversion to traveling by air and shrinking demand for seats on jets. As long as the virus remains at large, what will it take to satisfy people that it's safe to climb into a 90' aluminum tube crowded with strangers, close the door and sit there for hours?

I love to fly and am bored by Interstate Highways. But, in June I walked away from a paid-for ticket to Pittsburgh, 24 hours before flight time. Since then I have bought a new car better suited to long distance highway travel, anticipating that, for the foreseeable future, my trips will involve four tires on the pavement. Sigh. Next prediction: rising demand for self-driving technology.
 
There are two distinct types of airline travel-business and pleasure.

As to business, I remember many years ago, early in my professional career when video conferencing first came into significant use. The issues then were that setting up good facilities required space and was expensive. Also, habits are hard to break. Employees liked flying to face to face meetings. Now, fast forward to today. The technology is now cheap and everyone has the ability to video conference. The vast majority of business travel can be accomplished virtually. As companies face economic challenges, I see more and more online meetings likely and fewer in person. Things like conventions are very costly and once we get by a year or two without them, we'll realize there are other less expensive ways. I remember when we had major sales meetings twice a year. We'd gather with 50 sales persons and 30 corporate employees in a resort location. Figure travel at $1000 per person, lodging for 3-4 nights at $500 per person, food and beverage at $250 per person plus meeting rooms and other costs of $5000 total and soon you're around $145,000 plus add in the lost time just on getting to and from the meeting, two days of employees averaging $400-500 per day so another $1000 x 80 and now you're at $225,000 expense which can be reduced to $10,000 or so with virtual meetings. I see 90% of all business travel now unnecessary and anticipate 70% will be eliminated.

Then personal travel. We greatly prefer car but prefer boat over that. However, can't make a trip to Europe by car and can't take a weekend in NY by car. Air travel is a huge time saver. Most who can drive in the same time as flying requires, choose to drive. I see a couple of years in which the vast majority of personal air travel will be eliminated. Then I see a gradual resumption once the pandemic calms and the economy starts to recover. However, as pleasure flying is about convenience, I see the majority of it returning.

Let's assume for a second business travel settles back at 30% of prior numbers and personal travel at 90%. That is tremendously unworkable for airlines. Business travel pays the way. The entire pricing structure depends on it. Airlines will have to stop the discounting of pleasure travel, which will reduce it. Suddenly, leisure travelers will have to pay the full price of the seat.

The fact we've learned to conduct business virtually is devastating to airlines. It's not fear of sickness that long term puts them at the greatest peril, although perhaps it should be. It is the cost. If I can have a meeting from my office with the head buyer of a NY department store, then I don't have a reason to spend the money on a trip to NYC.

I haven't been on a plane since February. If I can go this long without, I can go far longer. My primary use of plane travel is to and from the boat when I fly home from a remote location.

There is one other business that quickly comes to my mind impacted by the business vs. personal situation described above. The US Postal Service depends on business mail and packages to be able to provide personal mail service. Home delivery has long dictated the rules and been the major uncovered cost. Business has paid the way. 3rd class, Parcel post, bulk mail and express mail pay the way. Home delivery is a huge money loser in the US. Letter mailing for $0.55 should be over $1. Saturday delivery should be eliminated except express mail. We could easily eliminate another day of home delivery, say Wednesday or do home delivery just on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Congress sets the rules and does so based on home delivery but they're now balking at paying the bill. Will business mail return to it's prior levels? I don't know as there is a lot of competition, but likely return to 80% or so. Still that's a huge shortfall.
 
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