release the nautical masses from nautical terms

[JWellington]

Except that typically, communities don't move and so maintain a constant relationship with the river. So the descriptor "north bank" works all the time, unless the river moves.

But in built up areas, the river is usually controlled so that it has a very hard time moving.

Yes, but people like geogaphers, and travellers move, so then the convention of right/left bank is more useful. In the same city a guy could describe his house as being on the north, or east bank, and anothetr guy as on the south or west bank and both could be on the left bank. So like port/starboard its more accurate. But sure, for most it doesnt matter, same as saying bathroom instead of head on boats doesnt.

 

[psneeld]

It matters to those that pride themselves in becoming part of a group that honors tradition as well as practicality.

Dumbing down is no way to go through life.....aspiring to fit in where desired is.

No one cares what lubbers call the sides of a river...any more than a soccer mom cares what a motor head calls the part of an engine that won't make it start and vice versa.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

The thing that is odd about this thread is that it seems a bit like the OP is trying to make excuses for their personal ignorance or laziness and normalize a lower standard (pardon the assumption).

To be honest, run your boat however you like. Who cares? You want to insist that your boat has a bathroom and a left side? Go nuts. Why even start a thread?

The idea that being irresponsible, ignoring regulations, safety, clarity and tradition is somehow a good idea is what has everyone's hackles up, I think.

To each their own, but this "dumbing down" of things in the guise of "accessibility" is why cars have safety stickers everywhere now...

It seems most people responding in this thread feel like there are benefits to a higher standard (even though I personally think that knowing some basic vocabulary is an incredibly low bar, not that anyone asked).

 

[JLD]

LOL, what was the point of this thread again?


Jim

 

[kthoennes]

I think this thread is really about two different things -- first, the usefulness, the practical utility of nautical terminology. Yeah yeah, bathroom/head, maybe that one is not critical, but I think that's a rare exception. About 9,000 posts have pretty solidly demonstrated that nautical terminology has a crystal clear practical utility and purpose, just as specific terminology does in lots of other specialized areas in life, in multiple languages.

I think the other issue though -- and maybe this is the real reason this thread has been so active -- is the charge that people who use it are being snobby or clubby or purposely obscure. I don't buy that argument either, in general. My wife and I did that touristy-but-fun Maine schooner thing one summer. Spent a week on a historic schooner, sleeping in a plywood bunk on a creaky ship with cold rainwater dripping through a loose deck prism onto my head. (DECK PRISM -- I have no idea what else you'd call it.) I thought I was pretty up to speed on my salty vocabulary but that rigging made me learn another Melville-novel's worth of nautical terms. The owners and crew and (most of) the other passengers weren't being snobby or clubby or purposely obscure. Granted, there was one obnoxious passenger who learned it and used it just to be a bossy jerk know-it-all, but he quickly became the butt of jokes. In fact some of us even made up our own nautical-sounding terms that were actually nonsense just to play with his head. And okay, I did want to whack his skull with a belaying pin, but I resisted the urge.

In short, yes, like any group of humans, when it comes to boats you have good reasonable sensible people and you have jerks, but in my experience the clubby snobby people are the minority, at least for those who actually run and maintain their own boats.

 

[ranger58sb]

The thing that is odd about this thread is that it seems a bit like the OP is trying to make excuses for their personal ignorance or laziness and normalize a lower standard (pardon the assumption).

I wonder if the people the OP (and the other guy, forget his name) usually hangs with are indeed oppressively anal about the terminology and overbearingly insistent on "correct" marine usage... to the point where maybe they refuse to understand or acknowledge words like "bathroom" or "kitchen" or whatever no matter what.

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

LOL, what was the point of this thread again?


Jim

The point is obvious. Everyone here needs to be correct, even the ones that are wrong.

 

[JWellington]

The point is obvious. Everyone here needs to be correct, even the ones that are wrong.

I tried an experiment on that. When my admiral said she'd grab me another beer from the kitchen , on her way back from the bathroom, I told her I wouldnt accept it unless she uses the correct jargon. She answered, "no skin off my ass, get it yourself".

 

[Hippocampus]

As the # 369th post I conclude in activities where you can die or get hurt or worst kill or hurt other people concise language that offers little or no misunderstandings is very much worthwhile. In all those settings one wants quiet except for those communications. This is true running a code, in the OR and yes when doing an evolution (a old time salty term) on a boat. Some take this responsibility seriously and apparently some here don’t. I could give a rodent’s rear end what you call a cooker. I do care what terms you use on the radio or giving commands to others or following commands from others on your boat or to those assisting you on the dock. I believe in those situations you have a ethical obligation to be clear, understandable and concise. To achieve this there are universally accepted nautical terms. Learn them and use them when giving information to others (even if you internally use you own idiosyncratic terms) and so you can understand them when others communicate to you.
When you are not doing an evolution don’t care what you say or how you say it. Will note to this end I’ve followed and given information to mariners whose primary language wasn’t English in fact outside marine terms spoke little or no English. This includes foreign flagged vessels, docking in foreign ports, having English as second language crew and serving as crew on foreign flagged cruising boats.
Believe there’s a definite misperception here. Motivation is to increase safety not any holier than thou or in crowd thinking.

 

[Hippocampus]

JW on a boat an evolution means a defined activity such as docking, overtaking, crossing, anchoring, reefing, gybing etc. I was bought up to believe when doing an evolution quiet except for concise polite language to safely achieve the evolution is worthwhile. Yes, pleasure boating should be pleasurable and joking around or having in depth conversation is part of that pleasure. But every safe boat I’ve ever been on has known when to get serious and communicate clearly. That requires the generally accepted nautical terms.
BTW although I very much enjoy bending my elbow with friends on a boat there’s no way I’m asking the admiral for a beer while underway or while doing a evolution. My boat is dry in those settings.

 

[ssobol]

Using the correct language is great if both parties have the same or similar training in the use of said language. Two doctors (or say, pilots) can talk to each other in their "language" and be absolutely clear in what they are communicating. However, a doctor using that same language when talking to the average patient is mostly speaking gibberish (as a lot of patients will tell you). The doctor has to explain to the patient what he said in "plain" english so that the patient understands. It may not be as precise, but it is better than no communication at all.

When coming into dock and there is a guy on the pier you want to help you. When you do not know his understanding of "nautical" language, it is actually much clearer to say "catch this rope and wrap it around that thing by your right foot" than to say "catch the spring line and warp it to a cleat". Probably not the best example, but it makes my point.

 

[JWellington]

Using the correct language is great if both parties have the same or similar training in the use of said language. Two doctors (or say, pilots) can talk to each other in their "language" and be absolutely clear in what they are communicating. However, a doctor using that same language when talking to the average patient is mostly speaking gibberish (as a lot of patients will tell you). The doctor has to explain to the patient what he said in "plain" english so that the patient understands. It may not be as precise, but it is better than no communication at all.

When coming into dock and there is a guy on the pier you want to help you. When you do not know his understanding of "nautical" language, it is actually much clearer to say "catch this rope and wrap it around that thing by your right foot" than to say "catch the spring line and warp it to a cleat". Probably not the best example, but it makes my point.

Exactly! I mean....copy that. I mean 10 - 4, I mean ..aye, aye........

 

[grahamdouglass]

Well said

I worked on freighters all my life, and I was allways amazed how narrow the vocabulary of some of the seamen were. When they got out side of maritime matters they didn’t have the vocabulary to carry on a conversation.

I remember talking to a Chinese mate and he said when he first got out of the merchant academy he had to go to his cabin, use his dictionary, to make sure the command he gave, in English was correct. He would have a multinational crew, Filipinos, Burmese etc but the language was always in English. The ship might be multilingual but the working language was always English, on this container line,.

 

[psneeld]

If a guy on the dock didn't understand what I said...I don't want his help anyway...I now know it could be more dangerous to use him than not.

 

[O C Diver]

n at all.

When coming into dock and there is a guy on the pier you want to help you. When you do not know his understanding of "nautical" language, it is actually much clearer to say "catch this rope and wrap it around that thing by your right foot" than to say "catch the spring line and warp it to a cleat". Probably not the best example, but it makes my point.

Ok, so is the guy standing on the dock a marina employee, a boater, or the village idiot who smoked a joint and is watching the sun set?

If it's an employee, I expect the guy to know how to cleat a line or drop the loop over the cleat / bollard.

If the guy is a boater, I expect the same thing as above and the desire to follow directions just as if he were the captain of the vessel.

As to the 3rd guy, please stay away from me, my boat, my lines and the cleats. There is no doubt that I can do it better by myself, than if I let you screw it up.

Ted

 

[JLD]

LOL,

Jim

 

[rslifkin]

If a guy on the dock didn't understand what I said...I don't want his help anyway...I now know it could be more dangerous to use him than not.

Agreed. And that's why I default to not wanting help. Only if I think they're competent and the situation can benefit from it will I let them help.

 

[kthoennes]

I know I'm just joining the chorus to some degree, but I immediately had the same thought. If I have to yell at somebody on the dock to "grab this rope and loop it around that thing next to your foot" - I'll handle the landing myself, thank you.

 

[FF]

"If I have to yell at somebody on the dock to "grab this rope and loop it around that thing next to your foot" - I'll handle the landing myself, thank you."

The hassle is the fellow on the dock will usually belay it to the cleat instantly , a short stop most times.

 

[SteveK]

"If I have to yell at somebody on the dock to "grab this rope and loop it around that thing next to your foot" - I'll handle the landing myself, thank you."

The hassle is the fellow on the dock will usually belay it to the cleat instantly , a short stop most times.

The admiral does not hand over a line until I give the signal. Then it is midship or stern line. Never the bow line. On near perfect landings we have watched the dock at stern fade away as the bow was pulled tight by a good Samaritan.

 

[Fish53]

I'm starting to see why I took a three month break from this site.