release the nautical masses from nautical terms

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Charts distance are standard.. not. The ICW is statue and of shore are Nautical..
 
Bob M said:
NOAA and ACE charts show statute miles, not nautical miles. River markers are statute miles. Therefore a mile on the water is a statute mile and should be called that.


Same story with knots per hour. Miles (statute miles) is the norm on charts and the only sensible measure of speed is miles per hour.

Some of the sailor jargon makes sense and some of it doesn't.
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I just learned that Statute miles can be used on the water, if you are in Inland Waters, especially the ICW! Who knew? Out here on the salt chuck, however, Miles are ALWAYS Nautical miles.

Since my only experience boating on a river was where I was using my CHS charts, I have never had to use Statute miles on the water. The Latitude grid on the chart measures the distance in Degrees and minutes, where one minute of latitude equals one Nautical Mile, and any distance scale printed elsewhere on the chart will repeat the same measurement. All you need to do is use your dividers to take a nautical mile measurement from the latitude at the side margin.

Also stated earlier, Knots per hour is a redundant statement.
 
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Seevee said:
Heck, it took me years to figure out what port and starboard was... slow learner.



I used to use statute miles, because the old charts were that way, now converting back to nautical.
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Not so fast. Whether it's nautical or statute miles depends on what body of water to which you're referring. The current charts are marked in nautical miles for oceanic waters/bays, and in statute miles for inland waters including the ICWs of the world! Some people use one or the other interchangeably, but a real boater knows the difference.
 
We are now well into the "you don't know what you don't know" part of the discussion.

That is one reason these types of threads seem longer than technical ones.
 
One has to remember the vast majority of boat owners only take their boats out a few times a year. Boats are floating condos that they visit on a weekend and dream on. Having to learn to tie proper knots and hitches, learn the proper language, and even etiquette are just to "esoteric" for some.

M
 
OK. I do understand the question and if one is new to boating, the question makes perfect sense. I will use a “broad brush” and assume a large number of readers on the forum are “power boat” operators, from the first boat onwards. I started in sailing 50+ years, and the only rope on board is attached to the ship’s bell. Every line has a different name and a specific purpose. Releasing the wrong one could spell disaster for the ship!
So, as said, it will help you to learn the language.
Added comment for fun:
A relative recent comment was made that marking a PIW was very difficult. What is a PIW. The intrusion of politically correct speech. Try MOB. (Person In the Water v/s Man Overboard)
Last is a what is said in movies. I am not USN, active or retired so I trust someone in this group can support or correct me. In battle scenes, the command to the helmsman is “right full rudder” or left full rudder”, and I assume that is the current correct command. The original language (British navy) commands would have been “ starboard to your helm full”!
All have a great day.
 
I suggest you read read the master and commander series by Patrick O’Brian. You may come away with a whole new appreciation for our nautical lingo. Not necessary but certainly precise. Now let’s set three sheets to the wind ?
 
Comodave said:
Absolutely, my over and out is a clear example. Poor communications. Over means one thing and out means the opposite. There is a good reason for precise language. And Ted’s point about how serious they are about boating, take the time and expend the effort to learn the language.
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Every 'domain' has its terminology and the driving force is clear communications delivered and understood, sent and received. I'm a longtime computer professional, scuba diver, an equestrian and a recent new boater. Each has their own dictionary - a cavalier attitude to the semantics could indicate a similar attitude to 'Rules of the Road', cruise planning, regular maintenance.

IMO the first thing in any new endeavor is to learn the 'data dictionary' ...(that's the techie in me;=)...although last year I started reading the 1st Patrick O'Brian book and gave up. I'd read an entire page, especially an action segment and hadn't the slightest idea what happened. I tried using a dictionary but I spent more time reading the dictionary than the book!
 
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amapola said:
The only necessity is port and starboard as noted in the answers above.
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Although those are important, I wouldn't say that out of the 1000's of terms those are the only 2 that matter.
 
I will agree with Sqwuimmy27 and others. It is not only part of the package when you thoroughly engage in the lifestyle. It also differentiates the the items quickly and accurately. If you were to say “Aft Stateroom” you will not mistaken which area .. “Back Bedroom” could be mistaken for the back of the front bedroom? This is where the safety portion comes in.. There is no mistaking proper marine names. Ugg.. It is hard for me to say “Back Bedroom” when referring to a vessel stateroom. It just seems wrong in many ways. I am a stickler with the terms. My girlfriend calls tge Starboard side the “starbright” side as when she was first learning it made it easy for her to remember.. it is now her lingo.. i am ok with this for some reason lol.

I think the nautical terms are more important for captain and crew. Guests get a free pas for a while :)
 
Leo Reise said:
OK. I do understand the question and if one is new to boating, the question makes perfect sense. I will use a “broad brush” and assume a large number of readers on the forum are “power boat” operators, from the first boat onwards. I started in sailing 50+ years, and the only rope on board is attached to the ship’s bell. Every line has a different name and a specific purpose. Releasing the wrong one could spell disaster for the ship!
So, as said, it will help you to learn the language.
Added comment for fun:
A relative recent comment was made that marking a PIW was very difficult. What is a PIW. The intrusion of politically correct speech. Try MOB. (Person In the Water v/s Man Overboard)
Last is a what is said in movies. I am not USN, active or retired so I trust someone in this group can support or correct me. In battle scenes, the command to the helmsman is “right full rudder” or left full rudder”, and I assume that is the current correct command. The original language (British navy) commands would have been “ starboard to your helm full”!
All have a great day.
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I believe steering commands are right and left rudder and come right or left XXX degrees or come right or left to XXX degrees.

A MOB is a PIW but a PIW is not necessarily a MOB.
 
I am fine with the nautical terms, save an except the use of knots. I am well aware of its origin, and meaning, but I hear it misused over and over. All the intracoastal waterways, and inland waterways are signed in statute miles, not nautical miles. I often hear my boating colleagues saying they were doing (for example) 10 knots when in fact they were doing 10 Statute Miles per Hour. No big deal, but I do wonder why. Then of course I also wonder why here in North America, when you come in from the sea to (say) a river, you look for "red right returning" on the buoys, but in Europe in the same entrance from the sea heading upstream, the red is on your port and the green on your starboard. I asked over there, and was told "well you are returning to the sea" -- and I was reminded that they were buoying long before us.
 
Bob M said:
I'm sympathetic with at least part of the complaint. For example, "head" is a bit ambiguous, does it mean the toilet or the entire bathroom? I've heard it used both ways. If the eating table is part of the kitchen, is it part of galley or more aptly called the dinette? Is it salon or saloon?


Aft is aft. Forward is forward. Port is port. Starboard is starboard. A galley is a kitchen. A toilet is a toilet. A bathroom is a bathroom. Line = rope.


NOAA and ACE charts show statute miles, not nautical miles. River markers are statute miles. Therefore a mile on the water is a statute mile and should be called that.


Same story with knots per hour. Miles (statute miles) is the norm on charts and the only sensible measure of speed is miles per hour.



Some of the sailor jargon makes sense and some of it doesn't.
Click to expand...


Bob, sorry but you are showing some ignorance in that you can talk MPH or knots, I don't really care, though on the water I usually refer to knots for speed. However, knots per hour is incorrect. A knot is a nautical mile per hour. Just because you think something is correct or sensible, doesn't make it so.
 
captmikem said:
One has to remember the vast majority of boat owners only take their boats out a few times a year. Boats are floating condos that they visit on a weekend and dream on. Having to learn to tie proper knots and hitches, learn the proper language, and even etiquette are just to "esoteric" for some.

M
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True...like many activities one doesn't know "shi* from shinola" until the activity becomes a "hobby" where one starts to spend enough time immersed in it to want to become part of "it"...rather than it just being an occasional "activity".

Some people spend large amounts of time learning about boating before they ever own one...then there are those that don't know "shi*........" but run out and buy one.

When and if they ever learn the language is up to them...but yes to be accepted as part of the hobbyists versus the activity crowd, I suggest trying to fit in rather than change the group.
 
koliver said:
I had the same issue with my wife for years. Being a teacher, she expected me to be able to teach her everything she needed to know without pause. Such was not the case, but as soon as she accepted teaching from our then teenage son, she learned easily and ever since (over 20 years) has been able to tie fenders on at the right height, more quickly than our friends who use those fancy hangars.

Aside: what nautical item is a "bumper"? I often hear that word on other boats, but I don't have any on my own.
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People are probably uttering the word "bummer"... right after they hit something with their fender at incorrect height... you're just transposing! :dance: :lol:
 
charlesamilton said:
Just wondering if I am the only one that really don't see the necessity of nautical terms. Is it really a sin to call a bathroom a bathroom on a boat? or right and left, or bedroom, and does it make any difference if you call a rope a rope, and a kitchen a kitchen? What is the reason for this lingo? Are we cool cuz we have our own language and are part of a exclusive club that feels it is important to call a wall a bulk head? I am a carpenter by trade and you know what guys that are ashamed of being a carpenter call themselves... a "housewright" I guess having a club with its own clever lingo is fun but is it really necessary?
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Aft, port, foreword, starboard, salon, bridge, head, to name only a few…..all have specific meanings not to be confused with alternate meanings that could put you (and others) in severe danger. It has nothing to do with coolness….. the more boating you do, the more evident this will become. I urge you to learn the correct nautical jargon……and use it.
 
backinblue said:
Peter, I was right with you up until the last sentence. When we approach a transient marina, my wife is tasked with deploying fenders and getting docklines ready. After trying a couple different devices, I round something that alows her to immediately attach and remove fenders from the rail as well as make infinite small height adjustments. Yes, you could accomplish the same thing with the proper "knot, etc" but it would not be as quick and easy for her, or anyone, no matter how good you are at it. If a device makes it easier and less stressful for her, it's worth it to me even if it's not as "salty".
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Totally understand that if it makes life easier for captain and crew, by all means do it.

However, there are many, many times where it's easier to secure a fender whip to a vertical upright. Allows very quick and easy vertical adjustment. And a proper knot (a hitch actually) is very secure. Much more versatile and very fast once practiced a bit. Heck, I'd settle for a properly tied and made-up cleat hitch that can be belayed and/or quickly undone under tension without untangling a mess wrappers around the clear. Flemish coils don't just look good, they facilitate fast line handling when needed. Reduces mistakes and increases options when things go sideways.

Another application is an anchor snubber. There are exhaustive threads on chain hooks and various devices. Why bother when virtually every boat has a properly sized dockline aboard and a quick tautline hitch will create an excellent snubber without another piece of gear aboard.

But this is not a thread on line handling. But it is a thread on nomenclature and nautical terms. And some basic skills. Line handling is one. I won't criticize newbies for lack of skills - it will come. But I am surprised that seasoned boaters have not adopted basic skills. Nomenclature and line handling come to mind. If you're going to commit time and money to boats in this category, learn the basics. They are part of seamanship skills.

Peter
 
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Glad I was even keeled and not three sheets to the wind when I came across this thread, as I was able to toe the line and avoid being left high and dry on the poop deck...
 
Greetings,
Re: Post #226: "Aft, port, foreword, starboard, salon, bridge, head, to name only a few…..all have specific meanings not to be confused with alternate meanings that could put you (and others) in severe danger."


Indeed!


salon (n.)1690s, "large room or apartment in a palace or great house," from French salon "reception room" (17c.), from Italian salone "large hall," from sala "hall," from a Germanic source (compare Old English sele, Middle English salle, Old Norse salr "hall," Old High German sal "hall, house," German Saal), from Proto-Germanic *salaz.
This is reconstructed to be from a PIE *sel- (1) "human settlement" (source also of Old Church Slavonic selo "courtyard, village," obsolete Polish siolo, Russian selo "village," Lithuanian sala "village."
The sense of "reception room of a Parisian lady" is by 1810 (the woman who hosts one is a salonnière). The meaning "gathering of fashionable people" is by 1888; the meaning "annual exhibition of contemporary paintings and sculpture in Paris" (1875) is from its originally being held in one of the salons of the Louvre, from a secondary sense of the French word, "spacious or elegant apartment for reception of company or artistic exhibitions." Meaning "establishment for hairdressing and beauty care" is by 1913. From: https://www.etymonline.com/


NO reference to anything nautical what-so-ever!



saloon (n.)1728, an Englished or otherwise deformed variant of salon (q.v.), and originally meaning the same, "spacious room set apart for reception of company or artistic display."
The specific sense of "large hall in a public place for entertainment or amusement" is from 1747; especially one on a passenger boat (by 1817); it later was used of railway cars furnished as drawing rooms (1842). The sense of "public bar" developed by 1841 in American English. Saloon-keeper "one who keeps a drinking saloon" is by 1839. From: https://www.etymonline.com/


Mr. WG. I suggest you take your own advice..." I urge you to learn the correct nautical jargon……and use it. "
 
Snug Harbor said:
What do you call your 1/2 bathroom at home (the one without a bathtub)? You call it a bathroom of course. Seriously, what difference does it make? I happen to use head and galley, but I'm not offended when someone uses bathroom or kitchen...
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The "half bath" in most houses I've known are called powder rooms -- which is admittedly a silly alternative as it has nothing to do with powder and of course that's an archaic term -- but even that habit demonstrates the need for more precise descriptive alternatives. We could certainly just call it a bathroom instead, but it's not the same as the bathrooms upstairs where you can -- of course -- actually take a bath.

We're having this discussion too as if this is a Western or English habit just contrived to be obscure or clubby. I spent a good chunk of time in Japan. If I live to be 107, I do not have time left in life to even begin to learn a tiny fraction Japanese nautical terms. Specialized vocabulary develops among humans the world over because it's useful and necessary, not to be exclusive or purposely inscrutable.
 
Port and starboard are very justifiable.

When you’re using the boat and you want to tell somebody about something on the port side and you tell him (when he asks what side is port?) that it’s the left side. That’s OK until you turn around. And boats orient themselves differently many many times in a days running.

To the OP you should learn the nautical terms. Use them. Only then will you see the benefits. Everybody’s on the same page communicating clearly.

I know it seems like boaters are saying “be like me and I’m special because I know a lot of stuff that you don’t. Be part of the clan.

It may even be that way when boaters start out. After they endure lessons about port and stbd. ect and use the terms awhile you forget about it … and communicate.

As to why mariners use “line” for rope once it is used for a specific thing aboard a boat I don’t know. But when a greenhorn calls the anchor line a rope … it actually makes me sorta cringe. Not trying to justify something … just say’in.
 
kthoennes said:
The "half bath" in most houses I've known are called powder rooms -- which is admittedly a silly alternative as it has nothing to do with powder and of course that's an archaic term -- but even that habit demonstrates the need for more precise descriptive alternatives. We could certainly just call it a bathroom instead, but it's not the same as the bathrooms upstairs where you can -- of course -- actually take a bath.

We're having this discussion too as if this is a Western or English habit just contrived to be obscure or clubby. I spent a good chunk of time in Japan. If I live to be 107, I do not have time left in life to even begin to learn a tiny fraction Japanese nautical terms. Specialized vocabulary develops among humans the world over because it's useful and necessary, not to be exclusive or purposely inscrutable.
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you beat me to powder room.
But powder room does come from way back when woman would use the term to go to the washroom, restroom, bathroom unless they were on a boat using the head. Powder room is similar to the little boys room slang.:D
 
since I started this thread I am obviously all knowing and my word is final. just kidding my serious friends! The original point of my question was how people in boating for some reason feel superior to us newbies and if we use a term or hit the dock a little hard or leave our fenders out three seconds too long the sanctimonious seasoned vets are all too ready to pounce. I have been skiing for over 55 years, I am damn good BUT I am thrilled when new people come to the sport I love, I don't look down on them if they get off the chair a bit awkwardly or forget to button their jacket or they complete a full yard sale, I help them up and dont judge them, I was once there. I love my boat, I love the life style and yes the nautical terms but for god sake's embrace us newbies, stop being such pompous know it all's, you were once there.
 
charlesamilton said:
I have been skiing for over 55 years, I am damn good BUT I am thrilled when new people come to the sport I love, I don't look down on them if they get off the chair a bit awkwardly or forget to button their jacket or they complete a full yard sale, I help them up and dont judge them, I was once there. I love my boat, I love the life style and yes the nautical terms but for god sake's embrace us newbies, stop being such pompous know it all's, you were once there.
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I look at it as 2 types of newbies. There are those that don't know much, but want to learn. And then there are those that don't know much, but think they do and can't be told otherwise (and have no desire to learn beyond the bare minimum for them to have fun and usually get away without hurting anyone).
 
This last post says it all Mr Charlesamilton.

No one here in real life would probably do anything more than try to help you coming into a dock and helping you with stuff in general.

But you post a thread that basically challenges what is familiar to older salts.

So all I have to say is look in the mirror for the problem.

Not those who have walked the path before you.

I posted before about smelling attitude...it just keeps getting stronger.

You want to feel better about all this...come visit with some old and new salts at the SE Trawler Forum get together in FT Pierce, Fl late Feb and you might feel different when you leave.
 
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