8AWG On-Off-On switch needed

[janice142]

I was on the boat this evening with the owner. Pictures taken. I'll process and upload tomorrow. Much to think about -- special thanks to twistedtree. Your input was invaluable (and your supposition correct)

More after Cortez tomorrow. J.

 

[psneeld]

This is a subject that should not be diagnosed on the web or by well meaning dockmates. Hire an ABYC Certified Electrician with a good reputation to sort this out.

The consequences of getting it wrong are just too great.

Suggested that back in post #9 with the exception that just starting off with a verified wiring diagram.

Sometimes just seeing it you can better visualize and it certainly doesn't hurt.

It also allows us or the "master electrician" a place to orient from and hit the most likely suspects. If nothing else it should speak to which replacement switch is necessary.

 

[C lectric]

CharlieJ,

I was thinking the same thing. I mostly refuse to give any electrical advice over the internet for that reason. People too often interchange terminology on the net and the results can be disastrous.

 

[janice142]

I am learning as I go... the owner knows his vessel however has had some health issues (surgery this past week, which hopefully will be the last for a time). His friends including myself are doing what folks do: helping resolve an issue so he won't have one more worry on his plate.

The fellows and I are learning.

As suggested I did take a more careful look at the set-up. Here are my notes:

These buss bars feed into the two switches. And now I know specifically which is which -- i.e. Red to Air-Conditioning distribution panel switch and the Black feeds the House distribution panel switch. This is helpful for me -- I can take apart/clean/put back together but wanted a more complete understanding. That required more knowledge, which was received here. Thanks to all who have contributed.

It has taken me a while to comprehend the set-up. I am not as fast as I once was. My Seaweed is much simpler with her single 30A inlet, plus the 12-v. I am admittedly not an expert however I am capable of learning. As I understand more it becomes clearer. This really does seem fairly basic in a lot of ways.

Tomorrow if all goes well I will get back aboard with one of the younger men to take that problem switch apart. Carefully, with the power plug detached, power off at the power post, labeling everything, etc. Taking apart seems less daunting now that I have a more clear understanding of where the cables come from/go to.

Cleaning the contacts is the next step in resolving the switch issue. I do appreciate the insights. At this point I am feeling more confident that this is something that can be accomplished.

Thank you again gentlemen.

Addendum to twistedtree: I will consult with owner re those buss bars/hot inlets. I am certain we can add switches/breaks to separate everything which would no doubt be wise.

 

[twistedtree]

I would not do a single thing on that boat until the bus bar situation has been addressed. It should be done IMMEDIATELY. I can't stress that enough. The way it's wired is extremely dangerous to everyone on the boat, around the boat, and working on the boat. Anyone doing anything around the unused shore inlets, like washing the boat or just taking a peek could literally be killed by the boat as wired. That boat shouldn't even be plugged into a dock in it's current condition.



Installing a shore power inlet selector switch is the correct solution, but you need to do something IMMEDIATELY as a stop gap.


Pick ONE shore power cord that you are going to use. Figure out which of the bus bar wires comes from that shore cord, and figure out which bus bar wire goes to the power panels. Then disconnect all the rest. Do that for the black, red, and white wires, carefully insulating and securing the disconnected wires where they can't touch anything.


Or better yet, follow Charlie's advice and get someone on the boat who knows what they are doing. The situation you have now is like kids playing with hand grenades. It's great to learn, but not killing or getting killed in the process is a good idea.


I really mean it. Stop everything and fix this NOW.

 

[twistedtree]

And it's going to be more complicated that I thought. You have 5 shore power inlets, and only 3 wires at the bus bar, assuming the 4th goes to the power panel. That means some of your shore power inlets are daisy chained, and might still leave unused outlets with live power on them. This needs to be traced out by someone who knows what they are doing, reduced down so there is only one power inlet wired through to the panels, and that all other inlets are disconnected, and when you think you are done, every inlet needs to be tested with a VOM to confirm they are dead.


I an f-ing amazed that someone wired the boat like this. Whoever did it should have their wire strippers confiscated and they should be relegated to paint scraping.

 

[Bacchus]

I absolutely agree that current situation is VERY DANGEROUS and against the very basic safety practices. Wire the 1 or 2 inlets / shore cords used for 120V and AC and disconnect everything else.
I would not want the responsibility and liability of performing any mods / fixes / etc and leaving the hazards in place... something very serious (DEATH) could easily happen and the liability would be obvious & significant.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Feeling the need to chime in supporting Charlie's post #30.
Well meaning dock mates, if there is an accident, are not insured against damage or injury. Subsequent issues (read fire) even if a result of previously existing components could become a real liability issue.


I have a similar setup: either 2-30A 120v inlets at the stern or 1 single 50A 230V midship. Rotary Switch allows only 1 to be active at a time. Lots of terminals and wires all properly installed.
I would not let anyone without proper liability insurance open the back panel of my system and start working.
Pretty sure the Marina feels the same. They require contractors to be pre- registered to verify proper insurance before entering the facility.

 

[janice142]

Catching up... And after unplugging the shore power cord, shutting down the power post, confirming with my multimeter that there was no power, I opened the plastic shield that protects the panel switches. Then removed seven screws that hold the hinged distribution panel in place.

Finally I took my notes from previous picture (black is house, red is air-condition, neutral, ground) and wrote on the bulkhead for the next guy that comes along. I took pictures of course.

I did take your advice and disconnect all the inputs from those first three buss bars, leaving the ground unchanged. I did leave the top feeder lines intact that go to the two switches. All three (black, red, white) are now labeled. 1 (undisturbed) plus 2,3,4.
It really is logical once you look at it.

Then to the switch. I brought a set of five different colored electrical tape and an ink pen. Plus my phone. I labeled each wire where it came from and where it goes to. Colors were matched too. It is well coded.

The only "problem" was that I had to remove the front plate from the switch in order to access four screws that hold the two parts of the switch together. That was a pain. Then sliding the switch forward should have been "easy" however the screws were out a bit to allow the wires to be removed. With the screws out came problem three:

The screws I had loosened to remove the wires were out too far to allow the switch to come through the panel. So, screwed them in and voila: the part is out!

From the top all looks well, however...

This is not good... and it gets worse:

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the source of the problem and it needs to be replaced. There will be zero attempts to clean it up. Basically heat is bad, and this is definitely bad.

Though the Air-Conditioning distribution panel switch is functional, I wanted to see what it looked like too. So, I took pictures. This is the bottom and what the house switch should look like:

I have discussed with the owner where to go from here. He gave me his credit card to order the new switch (thanks for that link up the thread a bit). Previously I had verified that the power is identical at the switch and the air-conditioning distribution panel (no degradation/no difference in voltage) and it is visually fine. At this time the owner opted not to replace that switch.

The vessel bilges are dry so all is well. We have time to get the new switch in and install it. By then the owner should be doing better. Falls are Dangerous!!!

I do thank you for the advice so far... and will reconnect the three wires that come from the 50A 125/250V power cord after the new switch is installed. For now she (the boat) is disconnected from shore power. I am not certain how the owner will chose to deal with the port and starboard 30 amp power feeds.

She is a great boat however at 50-plus years old some of the things that were standard back in the day have been superseded by safer choices nowadays. It is one of the things I remind myself of regularly: just because we did it 60-years ago on our boat doesn't mean it is best practice in this century.

Once again, thank you Sirs.

 

[janice142]

More: NOTHING is daisy chained... on the Starboard Side we have two 30 amp feeds to the buss bars... The 30A/110V inlet on the starboard side goes to the black (first) buss bar. The 50A/125V is a red hot to that second buss bar.

Picture: (port, the 50A/125V inlet)

Picture: (starboard, the 50A/125V inlet)

The same is true for the 30A/110V and 50A/125V inlets on the port side.

Thus we have two reds and two blacks (neutral/ground) on the four buss bars.
The final wires, from the port side 50A 125/250V is that third 8AWG line on the buss bars.

I do apologize -- had replied this first and then switched to my computer and forgot to copy over from the tablet. So there are not five wires feeding into the four buss bars. There are just three lines from the inlets on the side decks.

 

[Bacchus]

This safety issue being cited is with multi inlets connected to the buss bars plugging in one makes the others HOT and a very dangerous condition when handling multi shore cables & connection points.
Case in point you & the others assisting had no idea how this boatvwas wired and the hazards associated without literally days if investigation.
This is a serious accident waiting to happen.

 

[janice142]

This safety issue being cited is with multi inlets connected to the buss bars plugging in one makes the others HOT and a very dangerous condition when handling multi shore cables & connection points.

Agreed. At present the hot and neutral wires that lead to those buss bars have been removed. Once the new BlueSeas 9011 (thanks twistedtree) arrives from Defender ($330 delivered) and replaces the bad switch I will ascertain what wires are hot and attach those to the buss bars.

At present I do not know what the owner will do with the other two sets of hot and neutral wires. For now all buss bar wires except the ones that lead to those switches are removed, taped and labeled/numbered. It will be relatively easy to determine (one at a time) what are the port and starboard wires with a multimeter.

In addition to adding to the Power Connections page I will write on the bulkhead and label the wires. I've got a lot of wires labeled on Seaweed too, which makes my life easier when I start projects.

I do not know how the owner will chose to separate them out -- or even if he will keep them.

There is probably a dummy-proof switch that only allows one of the three sources to be selected. I will wander around Master Electronics and see what they have. http://masterelectronics.com (they had my primary 30A inlet breaker which I proactively replaced a couple months ago; at the time there were just 11 available in the entire country, which is frankly scary)

If you're curious, this is the breaker I replaced:

The new install/wiring for Seaweed's breaker is much tidier.

Thank you for pointing out the issues re the buss bars.