release the nautical masses from nautical terms

[psneeld]

The use, or lack thereof, of jargon isn’t critical most of the time. Some things have only one name and isn’t jargon, ie port and stbd but others aren’t so critical. The jargon in use today would be very different from the jargon in common use on the water 50 years ago. It could be argued many modern vessels lack a keel but we would all agree where the vessel keels is the keel even if it lacks a true keel.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the 32ft guy single handing isn’t going to be as fanatical as the admiral wannabe with radar, sonar, ais and five MFD’s.

No disrespect to anyone but this is a hurricane on a pond.

I disagree....I and many of my old and new boating friends use much of the terminology I learned 60 years ago. Sure, things not used much or are obsolete of peculiar to a certain segment of boating......are commonly used or know by all boaters...but many of the terms in this thread are still used by many/most of the boaters I know. At least with each other...whether they pass them along to others I can't say..

 

[JWellington]

Sorry JW...you are incorrect. As I clearly show in post 295... the correct vocabulary for any specialty is the correct way to function. Vocabularies per specialty are specifically for that specialty!

Marine life i.e., boating... be it commercial or pleasure, Navy or CG or Police or tow service are included in this range of "specialty". That's why ins cos do not insure those who know nothing about this specialty! Only people who do not wish to know marine vocabulary and don't really care to know how to act in marine environments circumvent the use and application of correct marine terms/vocabulary.

Insurance company to owner.......does your admiral still say "bathroom"? If so, no ins for you!!!

 

[JWellington]

The use, or lack thereof, of jargon isn’t critical most of the time. Some things have only one name and isn’t jargon, ie port and stbd but others aren’t so critical. The jargon in use today would be very different from the jargon in common use on the water 50 years ago. It could be argued many modern vessels lack a keel but we would all agree where the vessel keels is the keel even if it lacks a true keel.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the 32ft guy single handing isn’t going to be as fanatical as the admiral wannabe with radar, sonar, ais and five MFD’s.

No disrespect to anyone but this is a hurricane on a pond.

Quite right.

 

[backinblue]

The use, or lack thereof, of jargon isn’t critical most of the time. Some things have only one name and isn’t jargon, ie port and stbd but others aren’t so critical. The jargon in use today would be very different from the jargon in common use on the water 50 years ago. It could be argued many modern vessels lack a keel but we would all agree where the vessel keels is the keel even if it lacks a true keel.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the 32ft guy single handing isn’t going to be as fanatical as the admiral wannabe with radar, sonar, ais and five MFD’s.

No disrespect to anyone but this is a hurricane on a pond.

But to your own point, when you use the term "keel" everyone knows exactly what you are talking about even if a particular boat doesn't have a "keel" in the strictest definition. You didn't need to use any more than that simple 4 letter word to describe a part of a boat with no further explanation necessary. You just provided a good example of why nautical terms are specific and useful. I can agree that no harm is done if a guests asks where your bathroom is and it's not going to cause your boat to sink. But it's a stretch and untrue to state that most nautical terms are obsolete and not very useful. (Full disclosure, I only have 1 MFD) Now if the captain answeres the bathroom question with "The head is just abaft the f'oclse, port side" then he may have issues. lol

 

[JWellington]

But to your own point, when you use the term "keel" everyone knows exactly what you are talking about even if a particular boat doesn't have a "keel" in the strictest definition. You didn't need to use any more than that simple 4 letter word to describe a part of a boat with no further explanation necessary. You just provided a good example of why nautical terms are specific and useful. I can agree that no harm is done if a guests asks where your bathroom is and it's not going to cause your boat to sink. But it's a stretch and untrue to state that most nautical terms are obsolete and not very useful. (Full disclosure, I only have 1 MFD) Now if the captain answeres the bathroom question with "The head is just abaft the f'oclse, port side" then he may have issues. lol

Exactly

 

[Hippocampus]

JW please don’t operate any vessel near anyone . Standard nomenclature to avoid collision requires the use to starboard and port.
Should collision occur and you insist on using right and left would believe every admiralty and civil court would consider you to be “at fault” regardless of circumstances.

 

[Barking Sands]

 

[Hook and a screw]

I disagree....I and many of my old and new boating friends use much of the terminology I learned 60 years ago. Sure, things not used much or are obsolete of peculiar to a certain segment of boating......are commonly used or know by all boaters...but many of the terms in this thread are still used by many/most of the boaters I know. At least with each other...whether they pass them along to others I can't say..

Okay well let’s drag some stuff out of the forepeak and look at a few bits. How nostalgic are we going to be? Is it rope, line, cordage, hawser, painter, twine or string? I don’t know, but what I’m saying is 60 years ago some old tar was raging about the lack of proper terminology about the same as we are now. As well would you really say “abaft the beam” or “port/stbd aft quarter” or “someone is coming from astern port/stbd”? I’m doubtful people use compass points such as “sou’ by sou’ sou’ west” or bellow “8 points off the stbd bow”. Reading the thread you can see incorrect use of some jargon and the writer waxes poetic about their favourite jargon. Sometimes the terms are being used incorrectly. Times change and if the word is valid and remains in the lexicon so be it but if it isn’t needed let it go.

To me a bulkhead is part of the ships structure and if it isn’t it’s a wall. I’m not claiming this is the official term but it’s what we used in the navy. I do call it a head but do I have two cabins or two staterooms? Can’t say for sure but the stbd lower berth is mine and you can sleep in the upper rack or in lower cart or the upper pit of the other sleeping quarters.

Don’t get me wrong, I do the best I can to keep the life style and culture alive but it isn’t homogeneous from coast to coast let alone from country to country. The original poster wasn’t complaining about all sailor talk. If a word has a definition that’s the definition however if a word has two definitions who am I to be pedantic?

 

[ranger58sb]

A lot of the old jargon continuing is just snobbishness.

I think in many (most?) cases, this is just an invalid assumption in the first place. Same assumption OP made. Similar to the "just trying to impress" assumption.

When I think in fact many (most?) of us prefer the correct nautical terms in our marine environment simply because they have the required specificity for clear communications.

No snobbishness required. Clear communication is key. And Art's point is germane.

Every trade, sport, professional position etc... has its own specific "vocabulary".

Mason, carpenter, electrician, plumber, roofer - all have important to their trades' words

Football, soccer, baseball, tennis - all have important to their sports' words

CEO, CFO, CDO - all have important to their positions' words

God Forbid - Operating doctors and nurses forget their "special words" [item nomenclature] during heart transplant!!!

In similarity marine jargon [specific words with specific meanings] are actually very important too.

Can't imagine a stonemason or carpenter or whatever using trade-specific words simply to impress somebody. Communicating appropriately with the intended audience would seem like the only goal...

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

I think in many (most?) cases, this is just an invalid assumption in the first place. Same assumption OP made. Similar to the "just trying to impress" assumption.

When I think in fact many (most?) of us prefer the correct nautical terms in our marine environment simply because they have the required specificity for clear communications.

No snobbishness required. Clear communication is key. And Art's point is germane.




Can't imagine a stonemason or carpenter or whatever using trade-specific words simply to impress somebody. Communicating appropriately with the intended audience would seem like the only goal...

-Chris

Agreed. How productive would a carpenter be if he told his assistant, "Go into my truck and bring me a tool so I can fix something on this house."

 

[Hook and a screw]

The tone is the same throughout the thread, if it’s useful it’s used and if it isn’t it goes. Most of my boating doesn’t really involve worry about guests knowing what’s esoteric jargon. Most people are somewhat familiar with the basics and just need a bit of polish.

Now if we are talking about when the boats are in the yards and we are talking money your darned right we better be talking about the same thing. So can we make a list of the words and jargon that make this thread so testy? Recall the OP didn’t complain about port and stbd so let’s agree to forward and aft as well. Let’s also accept fo’rd as forward and ignore the confusion of double Enders for the melon farmers. [emoji3]

 

[backinblue]

Hook, re-read the original post. His position is that port and starboard are redundant terms for left and right and therefore unnecessary. That's why many of us won't accept his premise or your defense of it, even if you have some other valid points.

 

[JWellington]

Admiral: hey honey im going to batroom for a sec.
Capt: careful I just painted the walls in the small one downstairs
Admiral: ok, ill use the bathroom at the back of the boat.
Capt: sure babe, lots of clutter blocking the hallway though.
Admiral: ok ill just wizz over the railing behind the little rubber boat
Capt : great hon. and bring me another beer to the steering wheel.

 

[backinblue]

Admiral: hey honey im going to batroom for a sec.
Capt: careful I just painted the walls in the small one downstairs
Admiral: ok, ill use the bathroom at the back of the boat.
Capt: sure babe, lots of clutter blocking the hallway though.
Admiral: ok ill just wizz over the railing behind the little rubber boat
Capt : great hon. and bring me another beer to the steering wheel.

This is a terrible example. There are hundreds of terms more descriptive than "beer"!

 

[psneeld]

QUOTE=Hook and a screw;1070313]Okay well let’s drag some stuff out of the forepeak and look at a few bits. How nostalgic are we going to be? Is it rope, line, cordage, hawser, painter, twine or string? I don’t know, but what I’m saying is 60 years ago some old tar was raging about the lack of proper terminology about the same as we are now. As well would you really say “abaft the beam” or “port/stbd aft quarter” or “someone is coming from astern port/stbd”? I’m doubtful people use compass points such as “sou’ by sou’ sou’ west” or bellow “8 points off the stbd bow”. Reading the thread you can see incorrect use of some jargon and the writer waxes poetic about their favourite jargon. Sometimes the terms are being used incorrectly. Times change and if the word is valid and remains in the lexicon so be it but if it isn’t needed let it go.

To me a bulkhead is part of the ships structure and if it isn’t it’s a wall. I’m not claiming this is the official term but it’s what we used in the navy. I do call it a head but do I have two cabins or two staterooms? Can’t say for sure but the stbd lower berth is mine and you can sleep in the upper rack or in lower cart or the upper pit of the other sleeping quarters.

Don’t get me wrong, I do the best I can to keep the life style and culture alive but it isn’t homogeneous from coast to coast let alone from country to country. The original poster wasn’t complaining about all sailor talk. If a word has a definition that’s the definition however if a word has two definitions who am I to be pedantic?[/QUOTE]


Believe what you want but yes...I use "abaft the beam" and no one laughs at me, they usually compliment me after I nicely explain it if I have to...much of the time, the cruisers and captains I hang with know exactly what it means.

 

[Art]

Damn!!! I was at meetings for most of day and this thread has tripped over itself so much that I'm dizzy just scrolling down. Soooo... the only sane thing that any boater would do - is - change course! [of course for JW - I'd be "pointing differently" or some other nonsense term].

Anyway "Over and Out" Don't believe I'll be frequenting this particular thread any longer!! Bye, Bye!!

 

[O C Diver]

I'm assuming that H&S and JW have never read the rules. By this I mean the International Navigation Rules which apply to the line of Demarcation (do you even know where that line is?) and the Inland rules (do you know how far those apply?). In those rules (which you are subject to) there are all sorts or nautical terms, many of which determines who has right or way on the water. You will find terms like port, starboard, abaft of beam, underway, making way, not making way, and numerous more. The terms are important because they have precise meanings. As an example, Underway and Making way sound like they have a similar meaning, but they're very different. Another example would be, the vessel to starboard having the right of way when coures intersect. First you would need to know where starboard is and secondly the terminology to differentiate intersecting versus overtaking.

I'm sure you don't know the rules and certainly don't follow them, but should you ever want to enlighten yourself (besides the nautical nomenclature) here's a copy:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECDAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0GM6Ptxf6cF44wPNxwomXK

Ted

 

[Hook and a screw]

Do we salute on this web?

 

[psneeld]

A salute isn't required but for those that live by and have had multiple careers in the maritime industry ..... a bit more understanding and lack of attitude is appreciated.

 

[eagle419]

Anyway "Over and Out" Don't believe I'll be frequenting this particular thread any longer!! Bye, Bye!!

Ahh another pedagogic opportunity for an idle keyboard.

The term 'over and out' is often misused. "over" is a signal to the receiving station to switch to transmission mode, and 'out' means I'm ceasing communication with you'.

So, in this case Art is using correct terminology, in that he's asking you to keep talking, but he's not listening.

Curse this thread...

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Holy moly this thread is a train wreck.

I can only say that I would not want some of the posters in this thread anywhere near me in an emergency.

I haven't encountered any nautical terms, just like I didn't encounter many specific terms in the military or other areas of my life; that were created just to impress people. In almost all situations "jargon" was to ensure that communication is both expedient and precise. Left? Whose left? Which way are you facing? You are a liability. I don't want to have to rely on you in an emergency, and emergencies don't happen when it's convenient. It's happening off my port aft quarter. If that is too challenging for you, then you will always be a "guest" and that's fine. Just get out of the way when work needs to be done by those that need to do it.

 

[Hook and a screw]

Do you mean like certification on 21 vessels (8 classes of ships, including tankers, trawlers (real ones ironically), submarines, mini subs, ocean going tugs, several sub 100ft fast boats, chief engineer, 3 personal trawlers, boats cox’n, innumerable rhibs, dinghy’s and the like, ICW 3 times( once single handed), crossing the pond a half dozen times, most of the east coast from Happy Valley to Houston, most of the Caribbean, 3 of the Great Lakes,17 week Cdn Power Squadron Coarse, PCOC, ROC(M)? Just asking. Does this really need to devolve to ad hominem attacks?

 

[SteveK]

Can we agree that the English language is universal? Can we agree that English spoken sounds different in many countries and for that matter in North America.

But even though English words have many meanings and when spoken sound different, starboard is starboard throughout the English mariner world and there is no other right way to say it.
Please put the fenders on the starboard side OR hang the bumpers on the right side?

First I cannot find my favorite pancake mix and now take away the hard learned lingo of the boating world.

 

[O C Diver]

Do you mean like certification on 21 vessels (8 classes of ships, including tankers, trawlers (real ones ironically), submarines, mini subs, ocean going tugs, several sub 100ft fast boats, chief engineer, 3 personal trawlers, boats cox’n, innumerable rhibs, dinghy’s and the like, ICW 3 times( once single handed), crossing the pond a half dozen times, most of the east coast from Happy Valley to Houston, most of the Caribbean, 3 of the Great Lakes,17 week Cdn Power Squadron Coarse, PCOC, ROC(M)? Just asking. Does this really need to devolve to ad hominem attacks?

I apologize for painting you with the same brush. It was my impression that you didn’t feel the average boater (operator or mate on a boat) need know nautical terms, partly to understand the navigation rules.

Ted

 

[PPandE]

Funny how no one seems to care about the reason that we use words in the first place…. Communication. If I truly want someone to understand what I’m saying, I’ll use terms that they understand. If I Truly want to communicate with those involved in an unfamiliar environment, I’ll learn the lingo. Respect, both ways, seems to help the communication quite a bit.

 

[Hook and a screw]

Ted I’ve followed this site for a long time and I’ve learned a lot from you and so many others. There is so much more for me to learn and experience. This Covid is getting us all dawn as the past two summers have been a bust. My apologies if I misunderstood or came across as flippant. There are all levels of seamanship and styles, different ships; different hat tallies.

At no point was I arguing against proper terminology. With out question Nav Rules and COLREGs require an understanding of specific nomenclature. My view is a huge amount of the nautical world, as fascinating as it is, doesn’t apply to most of us humbler boaters. It’s critical for each individual to learn what they need to be safe on the waters under the conditions they will or may encounter.

Here’s a ditty I’ve hummed many a time. Let this explain what I’m feeling about the subject.

https://youtu.be/vcMgKK6o8jE

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SV. Re: Post #323. "...starboard is starboard throughout the English mariner world and there is no other right way to say it."

 

[slowgoesit]

Ahh another pedagogic opportunity for an idle keyboard.
The term 'over and out' is often misused. "over" is a signal to the receiving station to switch to transmission mode, and 'out' means I'm ceasing communication with you'.
So, in this case Art is using correct terminology, in that he's asking you to keep talking, but he's not listening.
Curse this thread...

​

On this same note of "you keep talking, but we're not listening", if you go to User CP, under "Settings and Options", select "edit ignore list" and type members id in, it's like raising the squelch on a VHF radio!
​

 

[BruceK]

A lot of the old jargon continuing is just snobbishness. And if somebody assumes when they hear....port...that the guy is facing the front of the boat......they might also assume tne same if he says.....left. If they say bathroom, they dont mean anyplace else.

Possibly just dumb; more likely a continuation of bait and troll by a very well fed troll.

 

[dannc]

Can we agree that the English language is universal? Can we agree that English spoken sounds different in many countries and for that matter in North America.

But even though English words have many meanings and when spoken sound different, starboard is starboard throughout the English mariner world and there is no other right way to say it....

I have been thinking about language since this discussion started.

What is interesting is that language changes over time, or at least the English language has done so.

Being a Hacker, i.e., one who hacks away at writing code is not a good thing in my experience and in the early usage of the word in programming. Today though, a Hacker seems to be a "good" term. Facebook's address is 1 Hacker Way which says it all as far as I am concerned.

However, nautical terminology has not really changed that much. The only words I can think of that have changed is saloon vs salon and starboard vs steer board. The words really have not changed but have evolved.

If one is a sailor, ye knows what a sheet does. You know the difference between a lazy sheet, a jib sheet, or a main sheet. One might have a clue as to understanding the meaning of being three sheets to the wind.

If one could pull an English speaking sailor out of the 17th century and put them on a modern sail boat, I don't think they would have any problem sailing and handling the vessel. Might have to show them how to use a winch, how to use the toilet in the head and the stove in the galley, but they would know how to sail the boat and the terminology will be understandable. One might have trouble understanding some of the 17th century sailors generic language but I would bet the nautical terms will be comprehensible.

Later,
Dan